Understanding the 3-4 defense (and other great links)
by kirkd on Feb 5, 2012 12:56 PM PST
Email
PrintThis was posted over on the Dawgman.com boards (big thanks to iqueral for originally posting these), and the links are too good not to pass along here too.
We all expect that new DC Justin Wilcox will implement more odd-numbered fronts here, and in anticipation of that, here are some good primers on understanding a 3-4 defense and that means in terms of roles and responsibilities for the various positions and how it compares to the 4-3:
Comparing the base 4-3 and 3-4 defenses:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/strategy-minicamps/2005/4-3-vs-3-4
The X's and O's of the 3-4:
http://www.gridironchat.com/resources/herrmann_34_defense.pdf
Understanding the lingo of gaps and DL positions (i.e. 1-technique, 3-technique, etc):
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/strategy-minicamps/2005/defensive-line-basics-mind-gap
Diving deeper into the varieties of 4-3 and 3-4 defenses ("over" vs. "under", etc):
http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php
As we start counting the days until Spring Practices, this should provide some good reading material as we start thinking about our defense under Wilcox and which pieces should fit best where.
27 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Sorry if I appear to be picking the nits..
But I think you mean odd-numbered down-linemen, not fronts.
The high majority, if not all of the time, fronts for a base defense are 7 or 8. (Some might argue that there can be 6, because there are a few teams that use the 3-3-5 as their base defense, but it’s the same thing as the 3-5-3, so their front is actually an 8-man front.)
3-4 and 4-3 are 7-man fronts, so incorporating and supplementing more 3-4 to go with the 4-3 is not actually implementing more odd-numbered fronts; the only difference between those is the number of down-linemen.
First, I'll say that terms are interchangeable, and coaches will have their own terms...
But by and large, the term “fronts” refer to those who are not the secondary, and those whose responsibility is to stop the run first, so no, it does not refer strictly to defensive linemen. The reason for this is that you can have an odd number of down-linemen in an 7- or an 8-man front, just as you can have an even number of down-linemen in a 7- or an 8-man front:
7-Man Fronts:
- Odd number of down-linemen: 3-4
- Even number of down-linemen: 4-3
8-Man Fronts:
- Odd number of down-linemen: 3-5-3
- Even number of down-linemen: 4-2-5 (Or 4-4; take your pick because they’re one in the same)
I’m sure if one were to attend a coaching clinic and ask around, most coaches would agree.
by Carl Shinyama on Feb 5, 2012 8:04 PM PST up reply actions
I should have been more specific
The evenness or oddness of a front refers to the defensive linemen.
My vote goes with thecassino's definition.
"During camp we had a lot of bodies, so we had a lot of guys that had experience,’’ said Vince Wilfork, the leader of the group. "We had a lot of guys that were young. We had a lot of fun, and it took us a while as unit to get going because of no offseason and switching our defense to a four-man front. The looks were different, the reads were different, so it actually took us a couple games for us to actually start making the plays that we knew we were capable of making.’
Link for the quote: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2012/02/05/the_patriots_defensive_front_jelled_with_time/
Vince Wilfork would be a defensive tackle with the New England Patriots, by his comments it would appear that the Patriots use defensive front as a description for the defensive linemen in a formation.
When I hear “defensive front”, I think defensive linemen, when I hear “the front seven” it is a way to combine the linebackers with the defensive front. I haven’t heard people use the term seven man front or eight man front, but I have heard people talk about seven or eight men in the box. I highly doubt the exact terminology matters, but I’m pretty sure that kirkd and thecassino’s understand of the terminology is the most widely accepted.
Out of sheer curiosity, how many coaching clinics have you been to?
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
From Joe Daniel, a football coach who runs football-defense.com, and published an e-book on installing a defense:
What is a front?
Before we go too far, lets address exactly what a defensive front is. There are two types of fronts, either 7 man or 8 man fronts. The front players are specifically assigned to stopping the run first.
The back end, or secondary, are not assigned to stopping the run first. The other 3 or 4 guys not in the 7 or 8 man fronts are looking to defend the pass first. When you are preparing your defense, make sure you know who is in on the run and who is defending the pass first.
Unfortunately, I cannot copy the link for the e-book since I don’t have the author’s permission; you’d have to download it for yourself, which is free at football-defense.com.
I do agree that exact terminology does not really matter, since it varies from coaches to coaches. Some will use the term “front,” and refer to the down-linemen, while some won’t.
I have not been to a coaching clinic, because I’m not a coach, but my uncle and his daughter’s husband have been and are high school head coaches, respectively, and my cousin’s husband goes to coaching clinics, and even they have used the term “front” the same way.
by Carl Shinyama on Feb 5, 2012 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
Coach Lupoi seems to think the term means DL, not DL+LB
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/huskyfootballblog/2017459560_video_—-_tosh_lupoi.html
I think there is a difference, where of course one of the ways I look at it is the opportunity to no longer coach a three-man front and be part of a system that at times utilized two defensive linemen on the field, where from this standpoint this is going to be an opportunity where it’s a true four-man front where I’m blessed to be playing a major role in coaching four guys on the field at all times.
;)
FIRE LUPOI
Too early??
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
OK, you've been here much longer than I, and am probably a nicer person,
but please do not envourage troll.
With Great Respect,
It was just a simple joke.
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
This is the case
Fronts in football refer to the players set to stop the run, or the players in the box. Excluding the secondary. But that is nit picking, thatnks for the reading Kirkd!
I think I've just figured out our problems with Holts defense! "What Front"?
Guessing Coach Wilcox and Co. will keep things S I M P L E to start…
Kind of imagined kind of a "Who's on first" mental picture...
It was a really funny thought when my sleep deprivation and coffee were meeting…(the looks on coach Holts face!)
In the end I think it boils down to personnel
I think teams that have a harder time recruiting bigger guys might like a 3-4 and your more elite programs that can grab elite large talent are fine with a 4-3.
Because our Defense hasn’t been that fast I personally would like to see more 3-4 and judging from recent recruits and Sark’s comments about Littleton being a rangy OLB I think he’s supporting Wilcox with personnel to match.
Pio V, Josh Banks and Turpin should be able to play DT or DE depending on the scheme.
Littleton, Rodgers, McDaniels should shore up the LB corps.
although...
aren’t the down linemen in a 3-4 generally larger than down linemen in a 4-3?
Defensive tackles is widely thought to be the most difficult position to recruit for in college football, so, I guess it makes sense theoretically pursue a defensive scheme that requires fewer “true” DT’s, and provides more opportunities to get athletic playmakers on the field (in the LB spots)
Yup
Ideally an NFL 3-4 you’d want the NT to be 350lbs or more and your DE would be 300. Since they don’t have to be speed rushers you simply want them to occupy as many OL bodies as their talent can handle.
When you look at NFL standout DE in a 4-3 you typically have your Elite guys like Julius Peppers who are 6’5 or more 280+ lbs with a great blend of speed and power but more often you are getting more 6’3 guys at about 270 with great edge speed
At either point our Defensive performance is going to come down to LB play. If the young guys like Lawyer and Lyons are ready to play that gives us good depth. I’d like to see Cory Waller at LB as well.
like the X's and O's
reviewing these schemes showed me how we were trying to do too much last year and not doing anything well.
the comment under the 4-3 explanation that said, if you don’t have a good pass rush and both safeties can cover well it is a recipe for disaster.
Shaq and a dedicated DL coach is a good start
Thanks for posting these kirkd!
and thanks for the shout out.
a couple more good reads
Props to RedmondLonghorn over on the DM.com boards for these – a couple more good, informative reads:
http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2011/8/15/2358269/on-the-3-4-switch-and-multiple-fronts
That first link
is excellent. Wilcox talked about running an under 3-4 today and that article does a great job explaining the one gap 3-4.
yeah, I love this stuff
One thing I wish a place like Dawgman.com would do, given their connections and bandwidth, is have someone like Dick Baird or Hugh Millen do some video chalk-talks. Technology these days would make it really easy for them to diagram plays and explain to an audience the details of what is going on in particular plays – the reads the QB makes, the hot-route options a WR has, the coverage responsibilities a LB has on a particular play, etc.
that would be amazing
and I’m sure guys like Milleyn and Baird would actually enjoy doing them.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
