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Around SBN: Despite Relocation Drama, Coyotes Overcome Adversity

Great story. Got me thinking about what it is going to take to stop the spreads that are taking hold in Oregon, UA, ASU, WSU and possibly UCLA. Lambo preaches "aggressiveness" which makes sense vs a team like WSU, but not necessarily against a run-first team like Oregon that wants to take advantage of your aggressiveness. The key is in something else he says - innovating your D in such a way that hides what you are trying to do and makes the pre-snap read - critical to all of these no-huddle attacks - very difficult to do. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to do that, but I think we all agree that this means the soft zone needs to go away (knowing full well what the consequent risks of that are).

4 months ago New_picture_tiny Gekko Mojo 101 comments 0 recs  | 

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Lambo!=Dee!=Good!

This “dead period” is killing me!

by gliderdawg on Jan 12, 2012 2:11 PM PST reply actions  

How come you get front page love?

I’ve never even been banned!! Or is that a requirement??

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"

by Lear Pilot on Jan 12, 2012 2:16 PM PST reply actions  

I have priveleges and, when I link to a fanpost using the "POST ON SBN" java tool, it defaults to the front page

… if JB gave me full rights, I’d bump all your stuff to the front page! But not KirkD’s stuff

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 12, 2012 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

You are spoiled.

At least I use paragraphs!!!

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"

by Lear Pilot on Jan 12, 2012 7:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Completely agree with Lambo

Pressure makes a great QB a good QB, and a good QB a bad QB. I don’t care if we use man, zone, or BOHICA coverages, but blitz the living daylights out of the QB!!!!!!!!!!

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"

by Lear Pilot on Jan 12, 2012 2:18 PM PST reply actions  

Agree 100% !

Plus *Bonus: It makes a good secondary… a Great Secondary!

by gliderdawg on Jan 12, 2012 2:23 PM PST up reply actions  

C'mon Man! I'm Trying To Wake Up From This Dead Period!

Plus..I don’t remember much if any steady pressure from Holt “blitzes”? Steady heat is the key…it’s what makes the “good” Qb squirm and get antsy…hearing “voices” and such!

by gliderdawg on Jan 12, 2012 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Steady heat is the hardest kind of heat though

believe me, I’d love for our secondary to turn into LSU’s. I just don’t think it’s that simple. Plus I’m a sadist ass who likes to wreck people’s good vibes.

by B Money on Jan 12, 2012 3:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Stopping QBs wasn't the worst of our problems

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 12, 2012 10:08 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Yup.

As I recall we did a pretty good job on RGIII and Baylor in the 2nd quarter. In the third quarter they went to the ground and our D had no answer.

And now, for my very elaborate and college-educated plan!'

by StuHamm on Jan 13, 2012 5:39 AM PST up reply actions  

pressure can help slow down a running game too.

Teams like WSU under Leach could be much more difficult though.

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"

by Lear Pilot on Jan 12, 2012 7:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't undersell aggressiveness on beating the spread

Something that Oregon failed at against Auburn and LSU was dealing with the speed of the read-option player on many options. Fairley was the best example, but others did this as well – they basically committed insanely hard to doing one thing, forcing the read to happen or even sometimes getting to the mesh before it was complete.

Being aggressive and forcing teams to actually make a choice is not the worst thing ever. It’s the principle behind blitzing, after all – make people beat you by reacting, not by deciding. That being said, aggression only gets you so far, and there are lots of ways to make an overaggressive defense pay hard these days.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 2:56 PM PST reply actions  

Yes - I think this is a good point.

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 12, 2012 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Also, I'm surprised y'all aren't talking about the Tupoi rumor

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 2:57 PM PST reply actions  

Rumor is

Wilcox offered Tupoi co-DC along with boatloads of cash. And Tupoi is going to accept. Wilcox will be responsible for playcalling. Tupoi will help with DLiine specifically but will also be DCoord in title.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Tosh Lupoi?

or is this a Tupoi guy I don’t know about.

by B Money on Jan 12, 2012 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry

Yes, Tosh Lupoi.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Over at ATQ

Specifically here.

Haven’t been able to confirm it. Would be a big coup if true, and would go with certain other vibes.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Sharepoint link?

You wouldn’t happen to be commenting while at work, now would you?

And now, for my very elaborate and college-educated plan!'

by StuHamm on Jan 12, 2012 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Busted.

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 12, 2012 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, shit

Let’s try that again

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 4:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I chuckled at this...

Gecko get’s the rec though…

Rosebowl titles last 90 years, UW 8, UO 1...
Twitter @DAWGFATHER91

by DAWGFATHER91 on Jan 12, 2012 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I dunno about this..

A U$C fan on ATQ….I smell a fowl…lol, I pray this guy has the correct information… it would be huge. Combined with what we have already done on the staff, this tells me all I need to know about Sark’s commitment…

Rosebowl titles last 90 years, UW 8, UO 1...
Twitter @DAWGFATHER91

by DAWGFATHER91 on Jan 12, 2012 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

You got me

Wilcox is actually reaching out to Rick Neuheisel instead. SURPRISE!

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 5:16 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

lol..

DAMMITT….

Rosebowl titles last 90 years, UW 8, UO 1...
Twitter @DAWGFATHER91

by DAWGFATHER91 on Jan 12, 2012 5:25 PM PST up reply actions  

If that is true . . .

I’ll have to become an Oregon fan . . . . .nah, I’d rather be a fan of opera.

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"

by Lear Pilot on Jan 12, 2012 7:11 PM PST up reply actions  

why not

take up comic opera and accomplish both at the same time?

by ole dawg on Jan 13, 2012 8:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I would love to sell you a SP based LMS if you're in the market.

How about a demo, I’ve already done 3 today, what’s one more…ugh.

I'm so positive, you'll need AZT later.

by Steen on Jan 12, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

What is a LMS?

And why is demoing 3 a big deal?

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 12, 2012 10:10 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Its a big deal because Im lazy.

Very, very lazy.

I'm so positive, you'll need AZT later.

by Steen on Jan 13, 2012 6:56 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Its a big deal because Im lazy.

Very, very lazy.

I'm so positive, you'll need AZT later.

by Steen on Jan 13, 2012 6:56 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Great that an offer's been made

But where is anyone suggesting that he’s going to accept?

by TualatinDawg on Jan 12, 2012 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Lambo disguised defense.

I remember watching Lambo defenses and wondering what the H they were doing. Guys were lined up everywhere, jumping around everywhere, linebackers in a 3-point, linemen in a 2-point, safeties on the LOS. Organized chaos. The only way to do that successfully is to A) have serious players, B) keep it simple, C) be aggressive.

I remember hearing Tommie Smith and Shane Pahukoa on the radio saying they had two reads: run or pass, and 2 reactions for each read. When all you have to do is decide between 1a/1b or 2a/2b, then it makes it easy and fun to fly around and hit people.

But…you have to have serious players. As that article states, the coaches had an epiphany, which included going out and getting a certain kind of athlete to play defense.

It ain’t brain surgery.

by Tunnelrat on Jan 12, 2012 3:42 PM PST reply actions  

Complexity is not always the best way to counter complexity.

Four options is plenty if all eleven are good enough and doing it right. Eliminate complexity = eliminating mistakes = reducing the opportunities for the offense.

Oregon’s offense is all about catching people out of position. They want to run more plays because it creates more opportunity for the defense to screw up. Simplicity is a nice way to counter the uptempo. Fewer reads/responsibilities = less time required to make your read = fewer mental mistakes.

by Tunnelrat on Jan 12, 2012 3:57 PM PST reply actions  

They don't want to run more plays, they want to score a TD on every play.

Why would an offense want to run more plays? There is a difference between wanting to move quickly between plays and wanting to run “more” plays.

I don’t see how our current defense could possibly be that complicated.

by UW11Bowdown on Jan 12, 2012 4:04 PM PST up reply actions  

They want to run more plays

Because it means they can minimize the effect of mistakes on any given play. When you only have 40 offensive plays that means you can screw up once and screw up 2.5% of your game plan. Double those plays? Halve the importance of any screwup.

It also tires out defenses as well as forces them to play perfectly, both of which is pretty tough. It’s essentially the principle being being aggressive on defense as well – you dictate the tempo the game is played at.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think they want to run more plays.

I’m sure they’d rather just run 14 plays a game and score a TD every time. They play fast for all of the obvious reasons, but solely trying to increase the number of plays they run a game is not one of them.

by UW11Bowdown on Jan 12, 2012 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

It's a byproduct

Sure, if Oregon can score tons of TDs and a TD every play that’s great. But that’s not particularly solid as a strategy. Furthermore, a lot of plays are done simply to see how an opposing defense will react and aren’t meant to become big win plays – they’re throwaways, and you can get away with that if you think that you can just make up for it later.

If you assume that you cannot score on every single play you run most of the time but want to figure out how you can make plays such that they’re more likely to score later, running more overall plays makes sense.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I disagree. I have never once seen Oregon or any other team throw away a play.

Probe for holes, sure. The way you are talking you make it sound like Chip wants his players to run out of bounds after gaining 5 yards so that the Ducks can up their play count.

by UW11Bowdown on Jan 12, 2012 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

You are being too literal - more plays is strongly correlated with more points

This is undeniable. If Oregon gets a big play, great. But – watch them – they aren’t going for the big play with high risks. They are trying to create numbers advantages and react to the schemes of the D’s. 3 Yds, 10 Yds, 80 Yds … All are acceptable outcomes off the same play

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 12, 2012 10:15 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Sure, but the goal is not to run more plays than the other team. The goal is to score.
They want to run more plays because it creates more opportunity for the defense to screw up.

The OP stated that running more plays is a goal, that just isn’t true. Kalon also stated that it was a goal, I’m not being too literal I’m just taking what they are saying at face value.

Scoring is the goal, and the methods that Oregon uses (hurry up offense, probing the defense, etc.) lead to running a lot of plays. My point is just that running more plays is not the goal, it is a by product of their offense.

The logic of running more plays makes the bad plays less prominent is flawed as well considering most defenses want the opponent to have to run as many plays as possible before scoring, giving more chances for a turnover or for a stop.

I’m sure Chip was really pissed when DAT took it 91 yards in the first half of the Rose Bowl, he really wanted the opportunity to probe Wisconsin’s D 10 more times that drive.

by UW11Bowdown on Jan 12, 2012 10:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay, let's put it this way

The goal of Oregon’s pacing is to run more plays than what is the normal ,average pace of a game. The goal is to have more possessions in a game, which will result in more plays for both teams than the average.

This is not the primary goal; the primary goal is to score more points than the opponent, but I figured that was pretty pedantic and Madden-esque to state. So instead it is a strategic goal because they assume that they will not score on every play they call.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 12, 2012 11:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I still don't agree that their goal is to run more plays.

You are confusing running more plays with running plays as quickly as possible, they are very different.

by UW11Bowdown on Jan 13, 2012 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

running more plays is the means to the end...

… you are being to literal, I think.

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 13, 2012 6:26 AM PST up reply actions  

It's pace, not plays.

There is a huge advantage for all offenses in having a quicker pace. I would think it even more so with an option offense. Defenses have a hard enough time being option correct with a slow pace. The number of plays are just a by product of the pace.

I'm so positive, you'll need AZT later.

by Steen on Jan 12, 2012 7:57 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Totally agree with Kalon. For the last few years it looks to me like Oregon runs the same 10 or 15 plays in the first half just to see how the defense reacts. At haltime they adjust base on how the D reacted to those plays and come out and torch the other team in the second half.

by Snostrebla on Jan 12, 2012 7:25 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I’m only repeating what has been said about Oregon’s offense by Oregon’s coaching staff. Time of possession is irrelevant. Number of snaps is much more important.

by Tunnelrat on Jan 12, 2012 5:15 PM PST reply actions  

and points on the scoreboard trump EVERYTHING.

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"

by Lear Pilot on Jan 12, 2012 7:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with Lambright.

One of my biggest gripes with guys like John Marshall is that he rarely disguised what the defense was going to do. And with Holt, to an extent. Holt would show a lot of different looks, but it wasn’t very often that he did much different. But then, without much penetration or a pass rush rush from his D-line, I’m not sure what else could have been done. I really believe Holt tried most everything he could think of.

I understand a lot of Holt’s play calls and the reasons for why he prepared for games the way he did. In many instances, I agreed with his approach, but I wanted him to mix it up more. Unpredictability can be an asset for a defense. The difference between me and him is in how I’d recruit for defense and my coverages. I’m a strong believer in being big, nasty, and smart up the middle (DT’s, MLB’s and SS’s), and physical and fast, especially fast on the outside. My coverages would implement a lot on man coverages, right up to the line of scrimmage.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 12, 2012 8:21 PM PST reply actions  

Your entire second paragraph sounds like what Holt was always quoted as saying he wanted to do if he felt it would be succesful.

We’ve had so many holes that I don’t think he thought we would be able to be successful playing man coverage.

And your recruiting tips, doesn’t that sound like who we’re trying to recruit on defense? I don’t really see any difference between what you’ve described and what we’ve tried to accomplish.

by UW11Bowdown on Jan 12, 2012 9:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Uhhh.. not really. I know Holt said that, but honestly, I'd have done it anyway.

Trufant is probably UW’s only reliable one-on-one cornerback, but they all play physical. You can’t take advantage of that with zone coverages.

I personally hate zone coverages, particularly cover 2/Tampa 2 packages similar to what Holt uses. I get that they are there to prevent big plays, but the one thing that makes it really work is SPEED and consistent penetration from your front four. You have to be fast EVERYWHERE, all across the board, and your D-linemen have to be great pretty much all across the board. That’s not very realistic unless you’re a school that annually can pick the type of players that they want. Also, cover schemes have one huge fundamental flaw; there’s always an opening; a soft spot.

I would personally have all my linebackers, corners, and safeties coached into playing a high amount of man coverages and a lot of press.

That said, I can see how you’d think there’s similarities between what I’ve said and what Holt’s said and actually practices. But you don’t know what my base defense/scheme would be, and therein lies the rub, because the types of players I would have and what their roles would be would be slightly different than a considerable amount of defenses.

My base defense would be the 3-5-3 defense, because you can do ANYTHING with it, and it is simplicity itself. There’s no need to get cute (and there’s plenty of room to get cute if you like, but there isn’t a need for it). You can create any front you want without changing anything up. Theoretically, you can counter just about any offense that is on field, from spread offenses like Oregon’s to teams that emphasize a lot of power formations like Stanford with the right front in the 3-5-3. Also, you can also run any coverage you want (and you can be sure I’m leaning towards man coverages unless circumstances dictate otherwise).

Because of that, my players have to be versatile and FAST on the outside. I’d want corners that can line up at safety and safeties that can line up at cornerback. My two very outside linebackers must be able to line up at safety and nickelback on the field. The commonality that they all must have is speed.

All my down linemen must be big, especially the nose tackle, similar to the nose tackle in a 3-4 defense. The nose tackle is the single most important player in my defense (but the middle linebacker comes close). All three down linemen would have to recognize blocking schemes. They all have to be space eaters. My middle linebacker has to be bigger than average as well. My two middle outside linebackers, the ones flanking the middle linebacker have to be strong , but speed is more important for them. My SS (or rather, my middle safety) has to be big AND fast. My middle linebacker and my middle safety have to be my smartest players.

I’ve given this a lot of thought, and honestly, in today’s college football world, scheme versatility (and not the scheme itself) is becoming more important on defense without the sacrifice of fundamentals. The 3-5-3 allows for that.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 13, 2012 9:06 PM PST up reply actions  

You understand that its advantage is that you can do ANYTHING with it, right?

If I wanted to, I could take the 3-5-3 and front a 4-2-5 with the same personnel (or a 4-4, if they’re spreading me out to run on me), a defense very well suited to matching up against spread offenses like what Mike Leach runs. The idea is to put my players in the best position to be successful. That’s really the main reason for the 3-5-3.

Or take an offense like Stanford’s with their numerous power formations, you can take the 3-5-3 and front a Split 6. I realize that has nothing to do with Mike Leach and his spread offense, but I say that because I want to show that with that defense, I can do ANYTHING with it.

Of course, the player personnel (and their ability to play) is more important than the scheme itself (any scheme, really), which is why I place such a high emphasis on player versatility and sound fundamental play. Also, I’d definitely try to fit my scheme towards the strengths of my player personnel rather than fit my players into my scheme.

Lastly, a 3-5-3 with an emphasis on press and man coverage brings exactly what Lambright was talking about with disguising your fronts and playing a lot more man coverage.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 12:38 AM PST up reply actions  

(Sigh)

Without repeating everything, I’m going to only repeat this: You can play ANY front you want, and ANY coverage you want in the 3-5-3.

You want a 2-high safety coverage? Very easy to do that in 3-5-3. Why? My secondary would be a rolling secondary. Why do you think I want hybrid CB’s who can line up at safety and DAWG linebackers (who are actually hybrid safeties-linebackers in the kind of defense I’d run) who can line up as either a safety or a nickel? I can create any look I want and run any coverage I want. This means that, yes, I can effectively play cover 2 or a quarters defense.

As for playing Cover 1 against spread offenses, Chicago did it rather effectively against Buffalo in 2010, and they are a typically a cover 2 defense. As an somewhat unrelated aside, Cover 1 can be used against a quite a few different offenses, like, (again, using Chicago as an example) Chicago against Minnesota in 2009, and Minnesota is not even close to being a primarily spread formation-based offense. Point is, you can use the Cover 1 all day against a spread offense.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, I forgot

Yes, you can play any defense with the perfect players. Let me tell you about my 4-3 that shifts into a 0-11 because my All American Backers and D Linemen cover like All American DBs.

by thecassino on Jan 14, 2012 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok, I tire of your sarcasm.

Further, you’ve shown that you either cannot comprehend the 3-5-3, or you make little to no effort to do so at all.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

his sarcasm has a point

The kinds of guys you’re talking about to fill out your backfield – they hybrid safeties/linebackers and hybrid corners/safeties – are at a premium. Guys that can run and cover AND tackle well and play physical at the line of scrimmage are not easy to come by.

And I have my doubts that even if you could field that group on defense that an offense like Stanford wouldn’t wear you down and run all over you in the 4th quarter.

I’m in the camp that believes that to slow down the new wave of offenses out there, you A) need to put more of your best athletes on defense instead of offense, and B) like you say, do a better job of disguising your blitzes & coverages pre-snap.

by kirkd on Jan 14, 2012 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

His sarcasm serves no purpose.

Those hybrid guys don’t have to be the elite athletes. Just versatile and fast, with the emphasis on simple, fundamental playing.

There’s plenty of versatile and fast players. Teams like Nebraska, Oregon, TCU, and Boise State are showing that. Nebraska has shown considerable success finding and using hybrid safety/linebackers in their version of the 4-2-5.

Also, in the kind of 3-5-3 that I’d want to field, the best players on that defense have the be the NT, the Mike, and the middle safety, not my hybrid players. If you think about it, that’s not that different from what Pete Carroll is trying to establish on his defense for the Seahawks.

Going a little further, the typical 3-5-3 system doesn’t NEED hybrid corner-safeties; they can simply be typical CB’s, but in the kind of defense that I’d run, I’d want them to be versatile enough to line up at safety to better disguise what I’m doing. However, my Dawg linebackers HAVE to be hybrid safety-linebackers.

Sure, teams like Stanford could wear down defense in the fourth quarter, but then, they can wear down just about ANY team no matter what their defensive scheme was. As I’ve said in a previous post, more important than the scheme is the player personnel (and their ability to play sound fundamental football), and putting them in the best position to succeed. With the right personnel, a team’s defense could slow down Stanford’s offense, even with a player personnel built for the 3-5-3 scheme.

Lastly, it’s a system that is versatile and emphasizes sound play by the players, useful for handling the increasing diversity of offenses in today’s game. With the ability to use multiple fronts along with a rolling secondary, you’d only need a certain number of blitz and stunt packages since you can disguise your coverages better. A system such as this one lends itself well with what Lambright was advocating with disguised plays and more man coverage.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd also like to add that

Teams preparing to face a 3-5-3 defense are usually much more used to playing even-front defenses, usually defenses that blitz maybe a quarter of the time. The 3-5-3 defense using two-gap responsibilities would be really confusing for most offenses out there, especially zone-blocking offenses who pick up defenders primarily in the direction that their shading, and the 3-5-3 moves their players head-up primarily, making each and every zone-blocker with no clue who they’re supposed to block.

Against a team like Oregon, they have to react to your call instead of dictating the game to you like they normally do.

Outside of Stanford, I’m not sure how many teams in the Pac-12 are used to blocking against odd-front defenses.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 4:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Uh

I think that ‘versatile and fast’ athletes is as good a definition for ‘elite’ as you’re going to see; that’s what works in New England, for instance.

Yes, if you get a lot of players who are smart, fast, and have sound fundamentals you can do a lot. Those are not common traits in players, and more importantly they’re very hard to recruit for as those are also the players who are going to Stanford or MIT or are in the SEC.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 14, 2012 10:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Not really. Versatile and fast does not make or define one as being elite.

Elite is a broad term that implies an object or person to be of the highest class. Being elite can include versatility and speed as part of a total package that makes one elite, but it doesn’t make either mutually exclusive.

Smart and fast is more common than you think. If you’re talking about guys who are intellectual scholars with elite track speed, then you’d be right, but we must account for degrees of intelligences. Solid football smarts with above average speed is very common. I cited just a handful of schools who are showing this to be true.

I find the New England example interesting. They fill their defensive side of the ball with cheap, versatile players who are usually replaced by younger versatile players. Save for Vince Wilfork, none of those players are among the elite players at their position.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

It's a very good idea

Provided one thing: you have a stud NT.

If you don’t it all falls apart.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 14, 2012 8:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Question first: Define "stud" NT.

The NT is the single most important player in that defense for me, yes.

But it doesn’t necessarily fall apart without a “stud” NT. It is quite possible to build a very solid defense, without a “stud” NT, as long as he, and his two flanking linemen takes up space and win the LOS battles, if not outright penetrating and disrupting the backfield.

As for building an elite defense, I would agree that having a NT that not only takes up space and wins the LOS battles, but actually penetrates the backfield regularly enough would be a very necessary piece.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

ivan was on kjr today

said at this point, pound for pound, danny is the strongest dawg on the team.
he also expects him to SHATTER all weightlifting records before he leaves the dub.
of course that needs to be complimented by improving his DL technique,not to mention learning how to carry the ball high and tight.

also they expect bern to have shane do his due diligence but expect him to be a lock to UW.

by PandG on Jan 14, 2012 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

If you don't have a NT that reliably commands double teams

the whole thing falls apart. So that would be the definition of ‘stud’ here.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 14, 2012 10:10 PM PST up reply actions  

That's a fair definition.

I agree that the NT would have to command double teams on just about every play, or at THE very least, the entire 3-man front must dictate that the opposing offense use at least four guys to block them, five if they can.

However, as I’ve said, it’s possible to build a very solid defense without having your NT be a “stud”. As long as the front three dictates that the opposing offense use four guys against them, and as long as the D-linemen take up space and win the LOS of battles, the defense can be pretty respectable, especially if your Mike and middle safety are well above average.

by Carl Shinyama on Jan 14, 2012 10:49 PM PST up reply actions  

We NEED

to put a bug in Woodward’s arse and let him know that Lambo deserves to be permanently honored at the UW Football Stadium. Others have come and gone – Lambo has been, is, and always will be, a Dawg.

by onewoodwacker on Jan 13, 2012 3:38 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Talking about Holt

is like talking about stains in underwear. The deed is over and done but the mark remains -

by onewoodwacker on Jan 13, 2012 3:54 AM PST reply actions  

It begins with stopping the read-option

Lambright is right. Somebody will enventually come along with an innovative idea that hides what you are trying to do and makes the pre-snap read – more of a guess then a read for spread and no-huddle offenses. I just hope Wilcox is that guy.

To start, you have to blow up the read-option. That is the fundamental base of spread offensive football. I would like to evenutally see somebody presnap shift to confuse the QB from audibling to the read-option. If the QB presnap audibles to read-option, the defense shifts to the strength of the would-be play. Ball is snapped, and the optioning QB is confused with an unblocked defendeer in his path and the pitch man is heavily defended w/ overlappping run support.

If you want to find a way to slow down spread offense you have to take out the fundamental play- the read option has to be blown up.

All I saw was purple

by crazidawg on Jan 13, 2012 7:49 AM PST reply actions  

WSU tried something like this against Oregon this year

What they did was always cover the RB and then always have a blitzing weakside linebacker that would go for the QB. That forced the mesh to go to the RB and they didn’t have much success.

For about two plays.

The thing about the read option is that it doesn’t just have the mesh as the option; there are a lot of choices out of it, and those choices aren’t pre-snap reads. In the WSU case the option was to not do the mesh at all but throw a WR screen away from the blitzing LB. They did this once, for a 60 yard TD. After that WSU kept to their lanes.

The Kelly spread option offense has at least two reads on every play and often more. Taking away one doesn’t stop the others. Overcommitting to stopping one or two doesn’t stop the others. You pick your poison, you take your chances. And that’s not even talking about the airraid approach or what RichRod does with his spreads.

If you want to slow down spread options the best way is to beat your blocks. Period. Get push up the middle, defeat double teams, don’t let linemen get to the second level. Beat your blocks.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 8:27 AM PST up reply actions  

beating your blocks is a fundamental approach to defense

This is true, but it is also true for just about everything you see offensively. We are talking about scheming.

I have a vision of somebody other then a blitzing LB forcing the pitch. My theory in defending the read-option doesn’t necessarily require a LB to defend the optioning QB. The base of the scheme would be a LB to force the QB to pitch the ball. To offer a change up, I would disguise it with a safety responsible for forcing the QB to ptich, in return the on-side LB offers overlapping run support. To change it up even more, I disguise a corner blitz to the play-side taking out the pitchman, in turn the QB has no option but keeper. Spread offense is all about the perimeter, it forces you to play well in space. You have to coach up playing in space well or you will suffer from the big play time and again. I’m on board from switching from a 4-3 base to a 3-4 base. Offensive football is years ahead of defensive football, especially in this league. To play well in space defensively, you have to match speed for speed and be in the right place to make stops.

Furthermore, I would like us to think outside the box. Maybe a dual defensive coordinator concept is a good approach. Have one D coordinator in charge of a 3-4 defense and another D coordinator in charge of a 4-3 defense. Vs. spread (Oregon, WSU, Arizona, Ucla, and Cal) I believe the 3-4 base is required. Vs. the pro (USC, Arizona State, Stanford, and Oregon State) I believe the 4-3 base is required. Can a two base defensive system work? I think for it to be successful, would require two coordinators who speicalize in that particular base system and it would help tremendously if we had interchangeable defensive parts (players).

All I saw was purple

by crazidawg on Jan 13, 2012 10:01 AM PST up reply actions  

true.

… but the pre-snap read is part of it. In the case of Oregon, its not so much disguising it from the QB, but from the coaching staff waving the posters on the sideline.

As for the options – I mostly agree with you although the notion that defenses will never be able to catch up schematically (which you imply) is not consistent with history. Defenses always catch up?

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 13, 2012 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that defenses won't catch up

But I am saying that notions like this are not the answer because they’ve already been tried and fail. And honestly, defenses haven’t been able to figure out reasonably what the answer is to an uptempo offense for a while now; we may be in a new age of offense similar to what we had with the west coast offense shift where the norm is more like 30 points a game instead of 23 (which went up from 17).

I would imagine that if you were going to beat this system schematically one of the better ways would be to have LBs that could cover, at least for a short time, and go almost always to a 4-4-3 type of defense. The reason is that CBs against WRs are almost always a loss for the CB trying to tackle, especially in space. LBs vs WRs is a better physical matchup if you can get it, and that would force teams to win on the pass, not the run. Another option is faster, more agile linemen; this was a problem both against Auburn and LSU, for instance. Going to a 2-6-3 alignment where avoiding blocks was important might work.

But things like disguising the person to be zone read..doesn’t.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 1:19 PM PST up reply actions  

agree

the offense is beatable by doing things like:

I would imagine that if you were going to beat this system schematically one of the better ways would be to have LBs that could cover, at least for a short time, and go almost always to a 4-4-3 type of defense.

The issue isn’t figuring the scheme that can succeed (success, of course, is also a function of the athletes), its committing to that scheme realizing that you may be weaker against other offensive sets.

There is no such thing as a perfect strategy. There are always tradeoffs.

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon

by Gekko Mojo on Jan 13, 2012 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep

This, btw, is something that Oregon has done well occasionally and poorly occasionally depending – adapt to what is being given them. BSU was an example of Oregon adapting hideously badly; BSU was committed to hitting seams and disrupting inside quickly, and Oregon was committed to running Blount on OZRs that took 4 seconds in the backfield. And they just kept on doing that over and over.

By comparison, Oregon adapted very well in the Auburn game, going away from the running attack and going to hit the passing attack. They just didn’t do it soon enough. Another adaptation that was great was against Stanford in 2010, and it didn’t happen all that slowly.

This is, btw, why I have a problem calling the spread a ‘gimmick’ offense. It’s run by about 30% of the colleges now in one form or another and about half of the high schools now, it seems. It has multiple answers for different sets and different reads depending on the personnel you have available, and can burn you hard if you overcommit to dealing with one specific tactic. And it requires winning inidividual battles and coordination, just like anything else. You can certainly devise schemes and plans to beat individual plays or types of plays, but they will have weaknesses that can be exploited. Good teams will be able to, bad teams won’t, but that’s the case for all offenses.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

I would imagine that if you were going to beat this system schematically one of the better ways would be to have LBs that could cover, at least for a short time, and go almost always to a 4-4-3 type of defense. The reason is that CBs against WRs are almost always a loss for the CB trying to tackle, especially in space.

Maybe. But right now, most of the big, fast, physical either/or receiver/cornerback guys want to play offense, and that’s generally where they get put. It’s by far the more glamorous of the two positions. If you can convince them that they’ll make more money in the long term as cornerbacks, you’ll be able to defeat a lot more of the outside stuff in the spread without having to commit as much safety or linebacker help, and they’ll be able to concentrate more on the middle of the field.

I don’t think that stopping the various iterations of the spread is as much schematic as it is a personnel issue. We’re in a period where more of the best athletes want to play offense instead of defense.

by Sundodger on Jan 13, 2012 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

What pitchman?

You’re talking about the Oregon spread running offense, right? There’s no pitchman to take out. The mesh happens almost immediately, and unless you’re saying that you want your scheme to have a guy able to get to the QB in 1.5 seconds every time this is immaterial.

A safety doesn’t force the QB to hand the ball off unless they’re the one being read. If they blitz it ultimately depends on where they blitz, but typically in an IZR the QB is reading the weakside DE or OLB depending on alignment. You could align two guys over there ,but then you’re leaving the strongside significantly weaker. If you rotate over to have more guys at the point of attack you have to watch for cutback lanes and bouncing it outside. And that’s just the IZR – the OZR has another set of issues and points, and none of that defends against the backside screen or quick pass to a slant receiver – and it especially gets hurt if they go play action off of it.

Other than beating your blocks, the scheme to take out spread option is not that hard; discipline. Don’t overcommit. Don’t get out of your lanes or your job. Tackle when you have the chance. Contain when you don’t. The issue is that if you do not do your job, you get burnt much worse since there’s very little help for you.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 10:40 AM PST reply actions  

Gah

stupid reply fail

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Oregon has two staples in the spread

The have the option-read off tackle and they have a more perimeter-based option requiring a pitchman (black mamba). Both are fundamentally the same play. One is more compact and the other is perimeter driven.

Oregon QBs spy either the play-side D End or the play-side LB. I say allow Oregon QBs to continue spying those two positions in their staple offensive schemes. Yet if the read is wrong, where the D End or LB have other responsiblities and a safety jumps up to stop the optioning QB then we have confusion. It doesn’t matter which position is responsible for the optioning QB, the bottom line is that you have to account for both the QB keeper and the off-tackle RB threat. Likewise for the perimeter-based option, you have to account for the QB keepr and the perimeter threat (black mamba). If the play-side receivers block on the L.O.S. you know black mamba is getting the ball, our guys have to get off those blocks and turn the play inward. The read-option stuff Oregon is running is basically the same as the option of yesteryear. It’s been upgraded over the years in the spread, where the play develops at a faster pace. The the principles of defending it are virtually the same.

All I saw was purple

by crazidawg on Jan 13, 2012 11:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, sorry

You really don’t know what you’re talking about here. Go to fishduck.com and watch some of the tutorials. The pitch is a very small component of only a couple of formations; the mesh is by huge, huge margins the primary system.

I realize Oregon used the double-RB outside pitch to great effect against Washington this year; this was one of the few times that Oregon used it all year. It is not common at all. On the two plays to DAT in the Rose bowl both were mesh handoffs – one was an IZR read with a pitch option possibility (that was taken as the IZR) and the other was a double option IZR/OZR read with a fly sweep that was given to DAT as the sweep.

“Yet if the read is wrong, where the D End or LB have other responsiblities and a safety jumps up to stop the optioning QB then we have confusion.

Not really. You either switch the read (which Oregon does all the time) or change the blocking (which Oregon does all the time). If you decide to do some kind of stunt where the LB now drops back as a safety and the S acts as the will LB, the read is the same; the QB isn’t looking at a specific person, he’s looking at a specific spot. This, btw, is a cornerstone of the Oregon offense – the zone read. The QB looks at a specific area to read. The blockers block specific lanes. The RB hits specific areas. None are saying ‘get a hat on this guy right here above all else’. Static switches to cause confusion aren’t really going to help all that much. And again, if you decide to switch up with a S or LB on the line that leaves you really vulnerable to seam routes on TEs or RBs as well as screens to the outside.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

In a nutshell, nothing has changed .. inside out pursuit

I get the blocking scheme. Your linemen aren’t responsible for one particular guy. The job of the O linemen is basically the same principles of blocking as the receivers. Their job is to occupy space, i.e. brush block in space. Chip has been cultivating and recruiting athletic O linemen and I get the reason why. He isn’t too concerned about blowing folks off the L.O.S. in his offense. It’s about spacing. That is where overlapping the run support has to be there. To be honest, I’m not too concerned about the safety, D End, or playside LB making the stop on the QB. I’m talking about cutting off lanes on the playside, the single most lethal weapon in stopping the read-option Oregon runs is the overlapping run support. We totally suck in that department.

All I saw was purple

by crazidawg on Jan 13, 2012 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Honestly I don't see why the focus should be on the Ducks

Both last year and this year Washington did an okay job defensively on the Ducks. Maybe not perfectly, but certainly fine. The real killer to the Huskies in the last two years hasn’t been the Ducks – it’s been teams like Stanford and Nebraska. Power running games that have run things down the Washington throat (USC did this too to a certain extent) really exposed the defense. While it’s fine to scheme against Oregon or plan on beating Oregon, chances are you’ll have a lot more mileage and a lot more wins in general scheming against the USC/Stanford teams.

If I could kiss Nick Holt, I would. Though, with him, I’m sure it would end in deep penetration and a score

by kalon on Jan 13, 2012 2:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed the BOHICA from Stanford and Nebraska the last 2 years is the real issue.

Did Stanford even need to suit up a WR in that game?!?! Just embarrassing.

I'm so positive, you'll need AZT later.

by Steen on Jan 13, 2012 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Other than beating your blocks, the scheme to take out spread option is not that hard; discipline. Don’t overcommit. Don’t get out of your lanes or your job. Tackle when you have the chance. Contain when you don’t. The issue is that if you do not do your job, you get burnt much worse since there’s very little help for you.

Yep. It’s amazing how many of Oregon’s big plays boil down to one guy either freelancing or simply not doing his job.

by Sundodger on Jan 13, 2012 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

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