The Monday Morning Wash - Contemplating the death penalty
It seems every time that college football scandals are discussed on the boards somebody brings up the possibility of the NCAA handing out what is called the death penalty as punishment for the crimes committed.
The death penalty has been used sparingly over the years. Southern Methodist (1986) football and Kentucky basketball (1952) are the most prominent examples of its use.
The Kentucky situation revolved around point shaving during the 1948 NIT tournament. Four Wildcat players were involved. Investigators also found out that in addition to point shaving the entire team was also receiving cash payments in excess of what was then allowed to attend the University. Once everything was sorted out the program went completely dark during the 1952 season as the result of NCAA sanctions.
City College of New York and Long Island University which were national powers at the time were also involved in the point shaving and recruiting scandals. CCNY deemphasized its athletic program and dropped down to what is now Division III. LIU shut down its entire athletic program from 1951 to 1957, and didn't return to Division I until the 1980s.
The University of San Francisco voluntarily suspended its basketball program in the 1980's after repeated recruiting and booster related sanctions. Quentin Dailey related problems in 1982 were the straws that broke that camels back for the administration of the school. The program was revived in 1985 at a deemphasized level.
Rumor has it that number one reason Seattle U. decided to drop out of big time basketball during the same time period is because they were also about to be hammered by the NCAA for major recruiting and booster related violations.
Seattle U. had a history of probation that dated back to the days of Elgin Baylor in the late 1950's and a point shaving related scandal of its own in 1965. Insiders say that the program folded because the administration didn't think it could survive another scandal during a period of lean overall finances at the school.
The most famous and recent use of the death penalty was Southern Methodist in 1986. SMU had been on NCAA probation seven times during its history and a staggering five times since 1974.
SMU was caught playing players and was told to stop paying players. While serving a severe three year probation they were once again almost immediately caught continuing to pay players and the NCAA came down with the ultimate hammer.
"SMU taught the committee that the death penalty is too much like the nuclear bomb. It's like what happened after we dropped the (atom) bomb in World War II. The results were so catastrophic that now we'll do anything to avoid dropping another one."
John V. Lombardi - Former University of Florida President
Years later, members of the committee like Lombardi who helped impose the death penalty said that they had never anticipated a situation where they would ever have to impose it, but their investigation at SMU revealed a program completely out of control.
The crippling effects the penalty had on SMU and the entire Southwest Conference has made the NCAA reluctant to ever hand the penalty out again even though it is still a weapon in their arsenal of sanctions.
That brings us to the University of Miami who some think could end up being the exception.The Hurricanes' trip before the Committee on Infractions in 1995 involved years of ill-gotten financial aid and what the NCAA refers to as "pay for play". Former UM academic advisor Tony Russell admitted to helping more than 80 student athletes, including 57 football players to falsify Pell Grant and receive kickbacks in return.
While all this was going on, players at Miami continued administering a long-running pool for on-the-field performance. According to the NCAA, players contributed money to a pool and then gave the proceeds to whichever player was deemed to have made the best tackle during the game. It went on for six years with the coaches being fully aware of it.
In 2003, the Hurricanes were put on probation and docked scholarships for baseball infractions. In the Committee on Infractions report, it defined Miami then as a repeat violator, which means that it committed major violations while already on probation for previous violations.
So when you factor in the Shapiro scandal which ran between 2002 and 2010 you have pretty much an unbroken string of cheating in one way or another at the school which dates back to the early 1980's. That cheating has resulted in the school having and maintaining an unfair competitive advantage over other schools which needs to be rectified in some way.
So what exactly does the death penalty consist of?
A "death penalty" ruling would mean the suspension of all games for one to two seasons, the freedom for any player to immediately transfer without having to sit out, the loss of significant media money through a television ban, significant reduction of scholarships over a three to four year period, significant reduction, or suspension of off campus recruiting, and a possible reduction of assistant coaches and staff during the probation period.
"You have to recognize that, today, inflicting that penalty on any one school has a lot of collateral damage to other members of the conference, involving media contract (TV) rights and a variety of things.
If the NCAA committee felt some kind of death penalty was justified, Emmert said he would not be opposed, suggesting rule breakers should "recognize the price of being caught."
Will Miami get the death penalty?
Probably not...the death penalty is only invoked when a school currently on probation continues to commit violations during that period as was the case with SMU back in the 1980's. As I wrote above there is evidence of overlap that dates back to the mid 80's but all indications at this point are that the NCAA does not feel comfortable pursuing that type of penalty in this case.
I do see the NCAA putting the hammer down by blasting Miami with significant scholarship cuts and banning the program for post season play for up to four years (if the bulk of the allegations are proven to be true). I see the penalties being greater and longer than what USC received.
I don't see the NCAA considering a television ban because of the impact it would have on other members of the ACC. For example imagine the damage the Pac 12 would suffer if USC wasn't on television for two years. That being said keeping them on TV and taking the money away is an option I wouldn't mind seeing them explore.
If you really want to stop cheating you need a deterrent that hits outlaw programs in the pocketbook. Keep in mind that football is the cash cow that runs most division one athletic departments. Suspend that revenue for a year or two and that school is going to feel the consequences.
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Hit them in where it hurts
I agree to hit them in the pocket book. Fine them 10 Million/year or whatever their football program brings in and you’ll see a whole new emphasis on compliance from every University.
Change two things with the death penalty, and do it
Don’t actually suspend the games, and as you suggest, keep them on TV but give their entire share of all media revenue to their opponents. Otherwise, give them a postseason ban, a ban on off-campus recruiting, scholarship reductions, and let any player transfer at any time without any penalty whatsoever. Let them keep ticket revenue in their own stadium, and that’s it.
by The Ancient Mariner on Aug 22, 2011 7:04 AM PDT reply actions
Can Not Agree With....
“let any player transfer at any time without any penalty whatsoever”. Uh-uh, no way, not unconditionally. For those players who have blatantly broken the rules, and taken up the bribes, it is time for them to take their shot at the NFL/CFL, etc… Their time as NCAA athletes should be over.
Otherwise, it shows no respect for all the great athletes and fine, young people, who said, “no thanks” to all the illegal gifts. prostitutes, drugs & cash.
by The Dude 4 Real on Aug 22, 2011 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Typically they're declared ineligible...
Which basically covers what you’re talking about.
The penalty isn't for transferring
it’s for wrongdoing. There is a difference.
by The Ancient Mariner on Aug 23, 2011 6:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Good points and penalties by all; I am not a death penalty advocate for Miami and other major cheaters
but rather an equally painful slow death. Take away their share of TV money, no bowls for 4 years, and loss of scholarships in the offending sports. For football, loss of 15 scholarships each year for 4 years, max of 10 signings a year, and max number of scholarship players at 45 total for same period. Athletes not implicated free to transfer without penalty immediately. This may not kill them immediately, but they will be cold and in rigor by year two. Also this allows schools who have already scheduled Miami to not have to replace them on the schedule post haste. And it allows those teams who felt like they were having the score run up to payback.
Also, force Miami to set aside all records, vacate wins etc, all the minutiae stuff that is currently levied also.
On a second note, you made me recall the Seattle U point shaving scandals, Charlie Williams from Stadium High in Tacoma was one of those mentioned back then in 65. Of course, back when Elgin Baylor played, it was a defacto wink wink that he was being paid.
clear up
please define and provide facts on “wink, wink”?
Support our student athletes, have faith in the coaches! "...it's how you play the game!"
Penalties to coaches?
We need to discuss the penalties to the coaches. I think that is where the relative severity should be in this case. What are the limitations here? What has happened in the past?
Really, all the NCAA can do to coaches
Is slap them with a “show cause”. Basically bans them from coaching for however many years they decide.
Not much else they can do there.
Lawyers get disbarred...
Doctors get sued for malpractice….truck drivers lose their certification…
Coaches already take an NCAA compliance test, right? Just give it some teeth. If you violate the rules, you lose your coaching credentials. Done deal.
Just like we do with lousy teachers…
Oh, wait…never mind.
There are other options for coaches...
…the most obvious of which would involve coaches who sign contracts at member schools to also sign agreements with the NCAA. Such a separate document would stipulate that coaches agree to pay Penalties and compensate the NCAA for costs associated with any rules violations for which they are found responsible. The concept would be similar to homeowner association participation.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon
In the Miami case, you have to punish the program
McKinleyville brought up a good point by focusing more discipline to rule breaking coaches. However, I am not sure he has read the Miami report in depth. The rule breaking was wide spread, where coaches knew about it. But it didn’t stop there. The booster in question was known to by the athletic director and his administration staff, and it is apparent that the university president knew about him as well. Why nobody attempted to get to the bottom of what was going on reflects guilt from top to bottom. I think Dr. Mark Emmert should consider a penalty considerably close to the death penalty for the U. But the death penalty needs to be redefined so that distruction for the ACC in general is minimmal. Regardless, the ACC is going to get hit by Miami transgressions. How much will it hurt? Well, considering the U has been mediocre for most of this decade, I’m not sure how much it will damage the football side of the league anyway. Basketball is king in the ACC as it is(was).
All I saw was purple
I'm all for the Death Penalty, both in football and in life.
The only way you are going to stop people from breaking the rules, is to make the punishment so severe that nobody would dare consider it. Why is it that I don’t drive at 118 mph on a regular basis? I know it would kill my career, I’d never get hired with that on my driving record.
I am all for public hangings, shooting squads, and burning people at the stake. You want to stop people from driving drunk? Seize their car and let the government sell it, it would sure help the budget issues. You want to stop people from sexually abusing kids? Cut off their manhood. Why did Japan surrender? We gave them two very severe punishments for their actions.
Same goes for college football. You want coaches to respect the rules? Ban Chip Kelly, FOR LIFE. You want players to respect the rules? Take away ALL remaining eligibility of players who knowingly break the rules.
Nobody messed with Roman citizens for fear of bring on the wrath of the entire Roman Empire. It’s time to stop this pansy ass slap on the wrist crap, make the punishments severe and give people a good reason to stop breaking the rules.
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
Deterrent effects don't work
if the person in question doesn’t think they’re going to get caught.
by huskies2010 on Aug 22, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Depends on how often it's enforced.
When people see everyone around them getting caught the possibility of being caught for their own actions becomes much more realistic. If the NCAA hadn’t punished anyone in 20 years do you think anyone would bother to follow a single one of their rules?
Exactly
People say the death penalty doesn’t work, the problem is it is NEVER used. How many people are actually executed these days? If people thought it was actually a possibility, it would be a deterrent.
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
My apologies
But it is meant to support my point that if we want to get rid of cheating in college football, we need to make the punishments more severe.
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
I definitely don't want to have that debate
given we were talking about football death penalties, it seemed like a poetic example. There is a reason I’m a pilot and not a poet!
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
It's never used because the collateral damage to the league and the association is too great
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
@chrislandon
Bold statement Lear, but I think I agree to some extent
Many programs know weighs the pros vs. cons already regarding cheating. Hell I’m sure Chip Kelly did along with many others. I wouldn’t be surprised if Boise State weighed the pros and cons in housing, feeding, and ensuring their incoming freshmen have transportation. Lear makes sense. If the penalties aren’t severe enough, we are going to see coaches conduct a little more recklesss and we have. I’d argue that the Miami report (if true) should ammount to Miami receiving the death penalty. Meanwhile, the NCAA needs to start hammering programs that cheat. Hammer them hard so they won’t do it again. And if a player willingly takes money- consider him inegligble and his ammature status gone. But most of all, find out who is doing the cheating. Is it the coach? athletic dept? or player? As of now the punishment isn’t harsh enough.
All I saw was purple
Hell must have frozen over . . .
we agree!!!
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
Sounds Good To Me
As a realist, I’m sick-n-tired of all the whiney/pussy treatment for those who blatantly break the rules and laws of our society. You start to make up your own rules, and you just became a sociopath. And we gotta’ knock down all the sociopaths, really F’ing hard!
As for the idea that an entire conference should not be hurt bye the lies and fraud from any one program, I’m not sure I am worried about that, either. Peer pressure can go a long way. If our university administrators and trustees would pay closer attention to the behavior of their both own programs AND what is happeing down the road, a lot of this crapola would never even get started.
The fact is that higher-ed is very sick in most all of American these days. And the rot/cancer starts right at the top.
It is time, for example, for PAC-12 Presidents and Trustees to lean hard on the Ducks. We should clean this bird-crap up ourselves, and not leave a mess for the NCAA to have to deal with. If we can’t deal with it, then maybe we deserve to take a bit of a hit, as a Conference.
by The Dude 4 Real on Aug 22, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Mostly agree
My concern is with conferences policing themselves. It sounds like a GREAT idea, but I think it is what screwed the UW in the 90’s. Our punishment was way too severe for the crimes committed, because a few money making programs didn’t like us being so dominant. If a conference could be fair and just, I’d be all for it. I just don’t see that as being likely.
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
Barbie Effect
Ah, but that in not a good analogy.
It just so happens that I was working with a Stanford grad, who’s Tree-alumnus buddy was a PAC-10 administrator, back when the PAC-10 handed over the first attempt to hand out penalties to our football program, back in the early 90’s. That first bid was expected to be argued against – so the first-round penalties including abuse that was expected to be turn down, under reconsideration.
But Barbie the AD was in love with her U Prez, who was in turn hating how much our Coach was loved, so Barbie just rolled over for all of Husky Football to take it hard in the back-side. And then the PAC-10 admin guy from Stanford was heard to say over the speaker phone, “The Huskies are not asking for any reconsideration! This is so much better than we ever could have expected!”.
So it was the “Barbie Effect”. Not really any problem with how a conference could manage itself, so much as mal-AD/university administration abuse .
by The Dude 4 Real on Aug 22, 2011 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Aren't all the small sports going to be hurt by a large penalty at Miami
if funding is substantially cut? I don’t know a way to prevent this but it would be pretty shitty to be at Miami playing another sport and see all funding for your team be cut because the football revenue was taken away.
by Edgar for Pres on Aug 22, 2011 12:34 PM PDT reply actions
they would
Sucks for those other sports if Miami football is hit in the pocketbook. Then again, they only exist because Miami football subsidizes them so…
Miami's Athletic Department is just as guilty as the football team
And if the athletic department is guilty then surely it is an athletic dept. problem. Yes it will also kill non revenue sports at the U. That just the way it is when the AD is in bed with Shapiro.
All I saw was purple
I want Oregon hammered too
Because when the collgeg football playing world sees major infractions due to having a working relationship with a slimy street agent, who got paid to deliver the goods, every school in the union will not deal with agents again. It will be a trend the dissolves overnight. Quit praying on our athletically gifted youth to pad your wallet!
All I saw was purple
I want them hammered at Husky Stadium.
Mercenary Dux half-wits versus Husky student athletes. I like our chances.
Make a Statement...Insitute the Death Penalty!!!
Then all the crap will dissolve quickly. You pussy foot around the problem… it will continue to happen. That is a part of life, not trying to be Politically Correct. Drop the Hammer!!!
The Tunnel is Hallowed and Sacred Ground
by bigdawgdaddy999 on Aug 23, 2011 1:10 AM PDT reply actions
Is Oregon really the problem with your program?
I want Oregon hammered too
Hammer UO for what? Having a Rich Alum that has a fetish with building nice new buildings? BTW, he has supported UW tons too. (and WSU and OSU and Stanford) I wonder. How many of you Huskies really love your own team and it’s not just about jealously with Oregon?
Gang Green Yell-O
Hammer Oregon?
I think Oregon will get penalized for its involvement with Willie Lyles…not sure if that punishment will fit the description of hammering when everything is all said and done. If you think the street agent problem is unique to Oregon you are drinking the wrong kool-aid.
Has Oregon been the problem with our program in the past?
Nope…the decline of the Washington football program was strictly an internal mess which has now been completely turned around thanks to solid leadership from Emmert, Woodward, and Sarkisian.
UW Dawg Pound - SBN Seattle
by John Berkowitz on Aug 23, 2011 5:47 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe I mispoke and singled out one
My point is, Miami isn’t the only school who is cheating. It is wide spread and at different degrees. But cheating is cheating and Oregon cannot and will not be able to justify paying Lyles $28 grand for an outdated scouting portfolio. I want to see penalties increase across the board.
All I saw was purple
Your statement implies that Oregon got ripped off.
Oregon did not get ripped off, they got exactly what they paid for. Oregon wants everyone to think they got ripped off, not the real story, they paid a street agent for his assistance. Sorry Chipper, you were stupid and got caught with your hand in the cookie jar.
"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
I just mean...
…that there’s no reason to question Cal’s involvement with Lyles. They paid what looks to be roughly market rate for valid recruiting info. That is most certainly not the case with Oregon.
And no, I don’t think Oregon was innocently ripped off by a con-man – they paid for influence, and that’s what they got.
My intuition tells me it was a mutual decision
Seastrunk wasn’t happy, Kelly is pissing his pants, and his law firm is trying to close off any ties left over from the Lyles deal. With Seastrunk leaving, it makes it appear as if Oregon is the victicm. However, I think its yet another notch in a long line of cover ups. Will see when it’s all said and done…
All I saw was purple
Who's to say Cal didn't get 5k worth of influence compared to Oregons 25k worth???
From what I’ve read, they both recieved the same recruiting package, just Oregon paid more. Just because Cal didn’t actually get a commit through Lyles doesn’t mean they aren’t just as guilty. Intent to cheat is just as damning as actually cheating.
They didn't receive the same package.
Cal received material of a similar nature (spreadsheets, etc.) but it was for the correct recruiting class. They also received video which they have provided as evidence. O****n received stuff for a class that had already graduated and been in college for a year and has been unable to provide any evidence of receiving video aside from a view dead YouTube links.
No
because Cal and LSU paid roughly the same price. Chip Kelly broke a rule by paying more than other schools and paying for a service that did not have an advertised price.
I don't think the price matters at all. It's fairly obvious that Lyles recruiting information was obsolete, so what exactly were these schools paying for?
Furthermore, I don’t think it’s an issue that Oregon paid more than the other schools, if they’re dumb enough to pay 25k for something that is being sold for 5k elsewhere then so be it. If I’m Lyles I’m selling my product for as much as I can get for it too (hence the unadvertised price).
As crazi states below, I want street agents out of the game. And personally I think giving them any sum is cheating.
price matters
It’s not the amount per se that was the issue – it’s that Lyles did not appear to have upfront prices listed or consistency in what he was delivering per price point. Lyles is free to charge $25K for Benton County recruits if he wants, but it has to be clearly stated what the recruiting package consists of, AND he actually has to deliver useful recruiting info, and make those packages available to any program.
And of course it’s quite curious that Oregon paid 5 times as much as Cal, yet got significantly less information that was of any use.
To some degree ... depends
I’m not sure if NCAA investigators are in Berkley or if they are investigating the $6,000 grand paid out. Their are rumors floating around that Seastrunk was given a pare of rare Nike shoes, which would be a significant benefit if you looked at the street value. Frequent flyer miles to Oregon games paid by who? And lets not forget that the history of LMJ recruitment could potentially be significant violations as well. Oregon has continued to redefine the grey areas in terms of the rules on a large scale. I want street agents our of the game and I want clear and precise rules, where slimy coaches can’t manipulate or interpret the meaning of the rules. Can’t wait for the oregon sanction story to come out. I will gladly jump like a little girl in order to watch Kelly piss his pants :)
All I saw was purple
Chip
JB stated the facts as I see them too. Now here is a little "color’ for ya:
It is just so annoying to ever see and/or hear anything of Chip Kelly. Listening to anything that D-bag says makes me feel like a rash is coming on. Sure, we have had a couple of douche-bag head coaches at the UW in the recent past, as you are surely thinking now, And that is precisely why I know what one of these is like.
All kidding aside, DucksflyinPAC, the sooner that UO gets rid of Chip Kelly, and pays the Piper for his stupidities, the less of a bump there will be for your program. UO does not need Chip Kelly, not at all.
by The Dude 4 Real on Aug 23, 2011 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
are you serious?
How many of you Huskies really love your own team and it’s not just about jealously with Oregon?
You’ve got to be kidding me with this. A little news flash for you – nobody here is following the Huskies because of some “jealousy” of Oregon. We are all Husky fans, and the reasons we are Husky fans have nothing to do with Oregon.
Besides, what exactly would we be jealous about anyway? All those Rose Bowl wins by the Zeros? Those National Championships? That 41% winning pct. vs. us?
Because the rise of UO football happened to come
right at the time we changed coaches and faced sanctions. Just like this rise you’re having now is coinciding with the sanctions of USC. You can pretend that it was PK or Rich Brooks, but it’s always the top dog taking a hit that allows the little guy to take over. I don’t like WSU, but they’re in state rivals and in a lot of ways, what’s good for them is good for us. I hate Oregon, and your fall will come with the recovery of UW. If sanctions help expedite that process, I welcome them with open arms.
That logic is epic fail
Blaming UO’s Rise in CF due to UW’s slide is hilarious at best. And if that logic were true could we not say the same thing when you were Conference Champs that UW’s success was only due to UO being down? it works both ways and that logic is epic fail.
Gang Green Yell-O
by DucksflyinPAC on Aug 23, 2011 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Huh?
When Oregon sucked for all those decades, it was because your program sucked, and not because of anything else, other than that. This comment then makes no sense as a reply to what B Money had to say. Until UO football has been sanctioned (and in our case – it was only bye the Conference, with heavy lobbying for abuse to the UW, from Stanford & Oregon, after the NCAA had found NOTHING to penalize), you just won’t get it.
Pretty sure that www.uwrejects.com , might just be applicable to an aweful lot of Ducks too. And that is just one of the reasons why it is going to be so cool to Beat The Ducks! coming soon to a neighborhood near you!
by The Dude 4 Real on Aug 24, 2011 4:07 AM PDT up reply actions
UO and UW
I think Oregon more than any other school in the conference benefited from Washington’s decline. However to say that Oregon’s rise is related to Washington’s decline is a little hard to swallow.
UW Dawg Pound - SBN Seattle
by John Berkowitz on Aug 24, 2011 4:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Logic makes perfect sense
And you can go back to the time Don James showed up at UDUB. It coincided with USC having an academic scandal. That allowed DJ to go into California and get kids that would have otherwise gone to USC. Similar things happened when UDUB got in trouble. All those kids chose someplace else to go. Oregon among other schools was a benefactor in that. Do you think its also weird that right after that (98) WSU went to the Rose bowl for the first time in like 50 years?
And I Love My Dawgs!!
All of ’em! Best coaching staff in the country right now, as far as I am concerned, and the are bringing in all the right kind of young men to play ball up here. Things can not get any better, as far as the way the program is working. The wins will come. And bye the time the Old Lady is done with getting her facelift and hips shaped, you will once again be feeling trepidatious when you come up to Husyy Stadium.
by The Dude 4 Real on Aug 23, 2011 8:21 AM PDT reply actions

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