So what exactly is going on at USC?
by John Berkowitz on Jun 12, 2009 8:09 AM PDT
62 comments
With the resignation of Tim Floyd it is pretty easy to say that the basketball program is going to be hammered. Did Tim Floyd actually hand out money to an associate of OJ Mayo in return for helping him choose USC?
That one sounds pretty far fetched to me even though Floyd resigned. It isn't like this is Tim Floyd's first rodeo. We have heard of teams for years using money to entice recruits but rarely does a coach ever touch that money directly as Floyd has been accused of. We haven't exactly heard Floyd's side of the story, but there wasn't an outright denial and now we have the resignation. Talk about a little smoke on the water.
What exactly does hammering mean these days for a college basketball program? Probably the loss of four scholarships for 2-3 years, a post season ban for at least a couple, and the loss of the always important TV money over a designated period of time.
Where does that leave the football program?
What the NCAA has been looking for is a direct link between either boosters, or Pete Carroll's staff in the matter of payments made to Reggie Bush and his family by sports agents. It seems the NCAA is headed for the "Lack of Institutional Control" model directed at the entire athletic department to wrap this one up.
I happen to think that the USC football program is pretty clean but there was obviously a lack of oversight as far as Bush situation goes. I also think the same thing would have happened if he had gone to Washington or Florida State. The one thing though that hurts USC is the amount of access during that period of time that agents and supposed agents had to the football team while on University property.
I think the NCAA would be hard pressed to nail USC just on the Bush incident alone. I do think that if you wrap that up with what has gone on with the basketball program and charge the athletic department with the responsibility rather than individual units of the sports program you have a good case for sanctions that would be hard to beat in court.
That really is the NCAA's quandary these days and that is getting charges and penalties to stand up in court. Gone are the days when a school like Washington would take the allegations sitting down, say I am sorry, and then turn over even more evidence to further incriminate themselves.
Since Reggie Bush and his parents were being paid by agents it probably means the NCAA will first will look into forfeits for the games he actually played in. That could also mean that they would have to forfeit the right to the championships they won while he was actually being paid illegally. He may even have to give up his Heisman Trophy. This all falls under the water under the bridge category. It deals with an unfair advantage in the past and it represents more of a black eye for the history of the program more than anything else.
As far as the future goes the newspapers in LA are talking about a possible bowl ban, loss of scholarships, and the loss of TV money. Here is where it gets tricky. USC is a big money maker for the Pac 10 conference so if they had a TV ban it would also hurt the other members of the conference. What they could possibly try to do is allow USC to play on TV but penalize them a certain amount of money from those appearances.
A two year bowl ban for USC would hurt the conference as a whole. It however would result in the leap frog effect of other conference members moving up a notch and taking their places in bowl games. It would of course hurt USC in recruiting as much as it hurt the UW in the 1990's.
What do I think is going to happen here?
- I think USC will forfeit past games, national championships, and Bush's Heisman Trophy could be at risk.
- I think the football program might get a one year bowl ban.This one is a little iffy and it depends on how they want to work with the TV money. Remember the deal the conference made with Washington? Perhaps the NCAA will work out something that is similar.
- I think there will be a temporary reduction in scholarships for the football team.
- I think there will be a loss of TV money for the football program even though they will allow the football team to play on TV.
- The basketball team is going to get hammered and lose as many as four scholarships.
- The basketball team will get a two year ban from the post season.
- The basketball team will get blacked out on television for at least a year.
- The basketball teams share of NCAA tournament money could be in question for a year or two.
- The USC Athletic Department as a whole will be hit with a five year probation for "Lack of Institutional Control" which means if they get caught doing anything else wrong they will be hammered even harder. The penalties for the football team will end in two years and the basketball team in three.
What does that mean for USC?
If this all goes down it probably means Pete Carroll will be coaching in an NFL stadium in 2010 which is a real shame. I think Pete has run a pretty clean program and the Bush situation for the most part was out of his control. You could also say that about Don James in the early 1990's in relation to Billy Joe Hobert.
You could also say in retrospect that you should notice and question when your QB shows up with a new souped up Camaro in the Montlake parking lot. You can make the same case with Bush's family because obviously the USC community had to know that something funny was going on. It wasn't like they just cashed a lottery ticket.
Historically I would rank Carroll among the very best who have ever coached in the conference. I think that his tenure at USC has been positive for everyone even though the Trojans have won the title almost every single year while he has been here. Pete has made a positive impact in almost every single life he has touched. I think it would be a tragedy for USC and the conference as a whole if he moved on.
That all being said the NCAA has to prove that they still have teeth. Everyone in the sports world is watching them on this one. They can't afford to make mistakes and just slapping USC's hands would send the wrong signal. I think the OJ Mayo incident and the allegation of a head coach being directly involved in passing money is the straw that breaks the USC Athletic Department's back.
What it could mean for Washington and other Pac 10 members
Some of you may remember that five Pac Ten teams including USC were put on probation in the mid 1970's during DJ's tenure at Washington. It had to do with bogus credits being issued by a diploma mill associated with a small school in Montana that coaches were using to keep players eligible. The players paid their money and received the credits but were not taking classes.
Washington wasn't one of those five teams and while they didn't slide into a Rose Bowl because of it they still were able to benefit in the recruiting front for a few years. It gave UW the time and leverage it needed to build a conference power and continue to dominate the Pacific Northwest.
Any penalty against the USC football program is going to help level out the talent level in the conference over the next five years. UW is in a great place right now to take advantage of that especially with the recruiting contacts the new coaching staff has in place in Southern California.
Just like the mid 1970's this just could be part of the tonic which helps rebuild the UW into a football powerhouse.
Just like the early 1990's for Washington a USC probation could cost the Trojans a legendary coach who feels his program has been unfairly treated. The fall out from that was a slow decline that only started to go on the upswing when Coach Sarkisian was hired.
Just like Don James I don't feel that Pete Carroll has done anything wrong.
Just like Don James I think there is a chance that a firestorm out of his control could end Pete Carroll's coaching tenure at USC.
To me that would be a shame.
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U$C
I think the only thing USC will get is probation on both occounts. With the resignation of Floyd and all the players leaving SC to play professionally overseas, the program is going to receive the death penalty right there.
I think probation is all that the football team will receive if that. This is merely specualtion, but I think the football team is and has been clean during the Carroll era. I think the Reggie Bush thing is an isolated situation. Furthermore I don’t think Pete Carroll, the athletic administration, and the program in general knew anything about the alledged Bush scandal. I think what we are looking at is a slimeball wanna-be sports agent contacting Reggie Bush’s parents and his parents making a deal with the slimeball sport agent behind Reggie’s back- this is a legitimate explanation. Evidence: Bush never signed w/ the slimeball sports agent once his eligiblity had run its course.
I think Reggie Bush played by the rules, I think the USC football program is and has been run clean. Yet Reggie’s parents lived in a very nice upscale home on a modest income. I think they (the parents) wanted to get something from their sons name and were too stubborn to wait until he turned pro to sign a contract. That’s what I think happened. Yet we’ll have to wait and see, I’ll be shocked if USC gets hammered by the NCAA on this. Reggie played by the rules, I can’t say the same about his parents.
All I saw was purple
Whoa Nellie
Bush’s parents were too greedy, not too stubborn and I think U$C should get something slapped on them for the NCAA’s catchall LOIC. Bush was driving a car that wasn’t within his families budget just like Billy Joe, there should have been some inqueries by the coaching staff. IMHO. All in all the $C AD does seem to think they are above normal constraints.
Well Said
They need to play by the same rules as everyone else, and they need to be punished above and beyond what is deserved, the same way we were in the early 90’s. We were crucified for minor issues, it’s about time that some of the California schools got the same treatment.
What comes around, goes around.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
I with you, but it won't happen
Yes we were crucified, not only did the NCAA punish us, but the Pac 10 stepped in and gave us double jeopardy.
Since then the NCAA has down scaled non-NCAA compliance punishments. It’s all about the $$$ and if U$C gets hammored, college football suffers and they know it. If the school complies with the investigation you get slapped on the wrist, and if you fire the coach, the university almost gets a free pass, which translates to probation.
This past week Alabama got 21 games forfeited during the 2005 thru 2007 seasons (all wins) and for what? They busted them for textbook fraudulent activity. Their was talk that scholarship reduction would occur, no television deal, and bowl bans. All the NCAA gave them was the forfeiture of games won during that time frame.
Alabama should’ve received a harder punishment. Why? Because during the 2005 thru 2007 seasons, the Crimson Tide were already on probation. With these NCAA sanctions coming up they actually broke their probation because they were on probation.
Alabama doesn’t lose out on anything. They get all their scholarships, they don’t lose out on the tv deal, they get to go bowling. And what’s worse is that between 05 and 07 Alabama really sucked and no one remembers that era anyways. SC will get an Alabama-like slap on the wrist for football. I’m not sure what they will get involving their basketball program.
All I saw was purple
The Pac 10 is great when USC, Washington, Ucla, and occasionally Arizona State are juggernauts. It makes the league viable on the national scene. But when USC’s toughest league competition is Cal, Oregon, and Oregon State the league looks awful on a national level.
I don’t want Pete Carroll back in the NFL, he’s been a very good embassidor for our league and shows nothing but class. Over the years not once did Carroll lobby for this and lobby for that. I can’t say the same for Mack Brown, Bob Stoops, and Urban Meyer. When a coach lobbys his way into a national championship game, it is just as cheap and ugly as watching Kobi Bryant leaning into a defender for signature foul shooting call. That brings me to…
Jordan or Bryant?
Jordan had multiple signature shots such as:
1) game winner in the 82 national championship game (NC vs. Georgetown)
2) stretched out limbs dunk you see on his Nike posters
3) the horizontal body contourted dunks
4) the "I’m dunking [pause in mid air] … no I am going to switch my hand on the ball, bring it all the way back down and lay it up on the reverse side of the basket shot vs. the Lakers in the NBA Finals.
5) the impossible 3 point endless shots Jordan took vs. Portland in the NBA Finals and simply shook his head.
6) the winning bucket in the NBA Finals vs. the Jazz and posing for enternity.
Jordan had multiple signature shots, Bryant has one
1) leaning in on a defender to get the call for a cheap/ugly and “get out of jail card” shooting foul call.
Kobi Bryant is so lame and this NBA Finals is almost unwatchable basketball. The game stinks and the players are really bad!
Sorry to get off the subject
All I saw was purple
Excellent Analysis, John
I agree that the basketball program will probably be penalized in severe fashion.
But I suspect that if evaluated in a vacuum, the football program would likely only get tagged for “Failure to Monitor” (for reasons outlined in an earlier post).
Which brings me to the question: Does “Lack of Institutional Control” applied to one sport (basketball) carry over to all others under suspicion? That is, because the “Institution” failed in basketball, would the NCAA invoke harsher penalties on football than they might otherwise?
Great Article...
…John. I think it will play out pretty close to what you said. The NCAA is under a media microscope on this one. That will make this case tougher for them than anything else.
( also, what does NT mean? I see it from time to time on these type of sites.)
no text
It’s useful on sites that don’t display the message without clicking on the subject line.
by hairofthedawg on Jun 12, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
New commit
Realdawg is reporting Colin Porter committed to UW.
Porter to UW?
I always thought his heart was at WSU because of the AG program he was interested in. I would think that the latest series of arrests sealed that deal.
Again John...
You keep forgetting about the influential power of Sark. This guy is mopping up the West Coast and it will all translate to 6+ wins as early as this season. Good stuff!
All I saw was purple
Mopping?
Not yet my friend…but the groundwork for doing that is firmly laid.
by John Berkowitz on Jun 12, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Well said Crazi.
“…the influential power of Sark”
I’ll pinch myself every morning just so I don’t forget.
With Porter’s commit we’re starting to see a great new OL taking place.
The class of 2010. The greatest Husky class ever?
2010
We are off to a great start but this isn’t close to the best class ever yet…in fact it isn’t close to the best Willingham class yet….lots of holes to filll between now and February. Check in this Spring…like you Ia mthinking it will be somtheing special.
by John Berkowitz on Jun 12, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Pete Carroll
Mr. Berkowitz,
I appreciate your analysis, but I think you are wrong on several counts. I am also not fully convinced that Floyd passed cash to Guillory, but something must be wrong if the head basketball coach of a major university abruptly resigns and all the players and new recruits just bolt.
However, this investigation is not just about Bush and Mayo. What is truly being missed in the MSM reporting and blog discussions of the potential USC NCAA violations is numerous other instances of "lack of institutional control" by USC in general and Pete Carroll in particular. (Well documented by Bruins Nation – http://www.bruinsnation.com/2008/5/15/508939/pete-carroll-tim-floyd-usc).
I take particular exception to your assertion that "the USC football program is pretty clean" and that you "don’t feel that Pete Carroll has done anything wrong." There are numerous instances were Carroll has acted inappropriately as a coach, turned a blind eye, or just plain lied. Some examples:
1. Carroll allowed O.J. Simpson onto his team’s practice field and into his team’s locker room to meet and greet his players
(http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2002-12-28-oj-usc_x.htm).
2. Carroll allowed Frostee Rucker (a multiple sex offender) to transfer to USC. Rucker attended Colorado State University where he played football his Freshman year until losing his athletic scholarship after female students at the university complained of assault and an incident of indecent exposure when Rucker allegedly streaked across campus after a night of drinking and partying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostee_Rucker). Rucker was subsequently arrested twice for domestic violence, once at USC and once as a Cincinnati Bengal.
3. Carroll yelled "f**k you" three times at Oregon Head Coach Mike Bellotti on national television (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmmxOsJW1Y).
4. Carroll denied knowing his star player and Heisman Trophy candidate was not getting money from an agent (http://www.amazon.com/Tarnished-Heisman-Reggie-College-Six-Figure/dp/1416577564). All the students at USC knew Bush was driving around in a tricked out car. How could the entire football staff not know?
5. Carroll lied about making a conference call to Reggie Bush while recruiting Joe McKnight. Why would McKnight state in his first press conference while describing his meeting with Carroll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOtZ-o7GfUI), but change his mind after consulting with his "advisors?"
These are just a few examples. There are dozens of other instances.
I understand that most colleges have some difficult students. If you have one hundred young men, sooner or later at least a few of them are going to get in trouble academically, with the law, or from undue influence by a booster or agent. No college is perfectly clean, but USC is particularly shameful. If you were a star high school football or basketball player, would you rather go to a school that made you stick to the rules and punished you if you didn’t, or to a school that covered up your misdeeds.
The distinguishing attribute should be how an institution polices itself and how it responds to potential violations. Many universities closely monitor their student-athletes and administer punishments when needed. Many universities also self-report potential NCAA violations.
This is not the case, however, with USC under AD Mike Garrett and Coach Pete Carroll (http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-streeter31-2009may31,1,6203099.column). At a recent booster meeting, someone asked Carroll if USC was ever going to emerge from the NCAA doghouse. Carroll answered by saying he’d long wanted to build a program where “everyone was coming after us.” Such scrutiny, he gushed, was the price paid “for being on top.”
This is the kind of hubris and arrogance that prevents institutions from regulating themselves. And it will be USC’s downfall.
Bellotti deserved it!
I remember watching this game and it was the “Reversal of the Reversal Game”. The officating crew reviewed the play and overturned the call in the endzone. Bellotti cried for a second review and got it. The lead official came back and reversed the reversal back to the original call.
By the way, the play should never have been allowed to be reviewed because the Oregon receiver who caught the would-be touchdown actually stepped out of bounds. No not pushed out, the guy stepped on the endline in the back of the endzone, which results (by definition of rule) that he is not an eligible receiver.
You’d do the same thing Chicago Bruin if Belotti got a cheap one like that reversed. Reversal of reversal? Good grief could you imagine the lead official’s explanation?
“After further review we are reversing the reversal of the play”
If they cared to review the play one more time then surely they would’ve had to reverse the reversal of the freakin’ REVERSAL! I think after all that you’d be dropping F bombs too! Belotti was a cry baby.
All I saw was purple
Let me get this straight
A UCLA fan is calling out USC, a team that hired Rick Neuweasel is calling out Pete Carroll. Last time I checked YOUR coach has more NCAA violations then the rest of college football combined. I’m not saying Pete Carroll is clean, but I am saying, “People that live in glass houses, shouldn’t throw stones.” Or even better, “Let him that hath no sin, cast the first stone.”
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
By the way . . .
If you would like to see your future, just look at Colorado and Washington after Neuheisel DESTROYED them.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
Your right I guess they might as well close the USC campus right now!
Yah thats the ticket Bruins can’t have their way so let just get SCs school closed so we don’t have compete. Hey hows your tennis team doing lately, good old Billy Martin I sure liked beating him back in the day, he was like you a cry baby and he cheated a lot.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 15, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Awesome Chicago Bruin...but a little one sided
Thanks for chucking in your more than two bits.
I tend to write about what I know and can actually take the time to prove.
You bring quite a bit to the table and it looks like you did your home work.
I actually forgot about the McNight/Bush thing but I do remember it happening. Celebrity recruiting is a big deal at USC. They even had OJ in the act as you related to us.
1. There is no law against having OJ Simpson around. OJ and other former players such as Marcus Allen are always around. OJ however is incarcerated currently so he won’t be back for awhile.
2. I don’t think there is a school in the Pac 10 including UW, or UCLA that doesn’t have a similar story to tell. Second chances happen and sometimes they work…sometimes they don’t. I wouldn’t throw stones in a glass house.
3. I don’t see a problem with it. Throw a mike on any coach int heleague and you would be surprised at what you hear during a game.
4. As I illustrated above in the post the UW coaches in the early 1990’s failed to notice that Billy Joe Hobert was driving a new Camaro depite having no income.Bottom line is UW never recived any sactions for anything Hobert did. In fact even though hobert was dismissed fromt he team the NCAA in the end never found anything improper concerning Hobert’s loan. I don’t think it is a coaches resposibility to keep track of their players and the families players financial transactions.
5. USC has stretched the rules as far as celebrity recruiting has gone. Fox analyst and former USC FB Petro Papadakis has been rumoroed to have been involved in breaking some grey area rules at his LA area restaurant as far as recruits are considered.
I think it all adds up to very little and it isn’t anything that UCLA isn’t doing currently.
Sad to see USC go down this way
"I hope he arouses the fire that's dormant in the innermost recesses of my soul. I plan to face him with the zeal of a challenger."
-Ichiro on Dice-K
Pete "best player plays" Carrol
Carroll as a “positive” for the Pac10 is absurd..
Carroll openly admits to seeking recruiting advice from Marv Goux who was the prototypical USC recruiter.. he paid players.
USC dominated a weak conference Goux’s time just as they do now. Their dominance was ended when Goux was caught and they were slammed by the NCAA.
What’s not being said about Carroll’s recruiting is while he’s overloading his team he is decimating the traditional Pac10 alternate powers. The best example is the recruiting of Wendell Tyler’s (bench warming) son, Marc…
USC & Carroll has been stealing players and money from the Pac10 for years. The only saving grace is that the conference is so weak that single USC losses have consistently cost them National championships.
The attached link provides a 45 point list of USC’s contribution to the community…..
I particularly like Rae Malaluga’s assurance to us that everything is OK because they “own the police”….
http://kurtsthoughts.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns April 14 2:38 AM
http://www.uwdawgpound.com/2009/6/12/907123/so-what-exactly-is-going-on-at-usc#
Yah thats the ticket Bruins can’t have their way so let just get SCs school closed so we don’t have compete. Hey hows your tennis team doing lately, good old Billy Martin I sure liked beating him back in the day, he was like you a cry baby and he cheated a lot.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 15, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
The best example is the recruiting of Wendell Tyler’s (bench warming) son, Marc…
Back in the day John McKay used to load talent so deep you could make a case that the stockpile was hurting the rest of the conference. With an 85 scholarship limit that is a real hard point to argue.
UCLA has the same advantaes as USC…in fact they are located in a lot more attractive part of LA…so what is a reasonable excuse? It all can’t be blamed on USC.
by John Berkowitz on Jun 15, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
cheat on...
the reasonable answer is that just like Marv Goux (McKay’s assistant) Carroll is cheating…
Carrol had no experience in recruiting when he came to USC as their 4th choice…
What is more likely..
Cheat on... (continued)
the reasonable answer is that just like Marv Goux (McKay’s assistant), Carroll is cheating…
Carrol had no experience in recruiting when he came to USC as their 4th choice…
Which is more likely..
USC luckily found an untapped recruiting savant…
or
With next to no college experience and no regard for anything but NFL style “win at all costs”, Carroll has cheated his way to success with the guidance of Marv Goux and the money that SC alums are willing spend in order to “cheat on”…
Remember, SC was “nowhere” and had lost to UCLA 8 years in a row before “best player plays” showed up..
The adage about bulls, bears and pigs is applicable in SC’s case..
The rampant cheating of the football program will be brought to light because someone tried to apply the football model to their basketball program…
By the way… have you looked at the 45 point list for Pete’s tenure???? It’s nauseating…
I doubt that anyone could compile a list like that about UW football if they looked at the entire history of the program…
“best player plays”…. “Cheat on”
Oh yes the list the sacred ucla list of usc what a joke since UCLA had the first ex-players put in prison.
Gary Malconon (holding up pizza delivery with a knife) and Darrell Henley trafficking Cocaine and attempted murder.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 15, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You shouldn't doubt others
“I doubt that anyone could compile a list like that about UW football if they looked at the entire history of the program.” Actually it would be quite easy, I give you one name, Slick Rick Neuheisel.
I think it’s REALLY stupid for UCLA fans to be calling Pete Carroll a cheater, when they in fact hired the most well known cheater in the game. UCLA’s clock is ticking, a MAJOR implosion is coming, just look at how Slick Rick left Colorado and Washington in such great shape. NCAA probation and constantly being in the worst team in the conference is YOUR destiny!
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
I disagree. Rick was notorious at pushing the rules and stretching them like the lawyer he is, but he wasn’t much of a blatant cheater. And on top of that, I happen to think that he learned his lesson and is truly grateful for the 2nd chance that his alma mater has given to him by giving him his dream job, and he’ll play enough within the rules to keep the NCAA off his back.
I’m not convinced he can build that program back up to conference contender status, but I don’t think if he fails it will be because he got in trouble with the NCAA for cheating…
I second Kirk's disagreement
I think Neu will do fine at UCLA.
Rick almost bled to death because of 100,000 paper cuts.
by John Berkowitz on Jun 16, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Slick Rick
Not too rehash the past, but Rick constantly bent, pushed, skirted, twisted, circum-navigated most every rule that existed. Rick’s philosophy is “it’s not cheating if you don’t get caught.” I don’t believe he has changed, I think he is currently being more carefull, and he will eventually get caught breaking more rules.
I do agree with your lack of confidence in his ability to build UCLA into a contender. I think he is still too soft on his players and doesn’t have enough of a blue collar attitude to be a successful head coach. Even if by some miracle he keeps clean and doesn’t run into more sanctions, he will not be able to build a contender.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
??????
Lear pilot… did you read the list????
Mr Kelly… your thoughts on Marv “mr. trojan” Goux???
Is he still alive?
You never worried about things that didn’t personally affect me, it’s really none of my business.
List are for people who can’t remember what or how to do something, as of the ones who have to write down their goals. For me I simply look in the mirror every morning and say wow i ’m still here now how can I improve myself today and who can I help along their way.
I happen to go to cerritos jc and guess who i played basketball with yep LO RO and he used to ask me for advise.
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 16, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
You need to read the list . . .
of the 100+ NCAA violations committed by RIck Neuheisel.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
BMTSTUFF....Marv died in 2002
Let me start off by saying thanks for posting and reading here. Anytime we talk about USC a Bruin point of view is always welcome. That being said don’t expect everyone to buy into it either.
I always wonder why it is so important for some people to have other people buy in completely to there view of the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and this blog does a great job in letting people such as yourself showcase those opinions with respect.
However I have a hard time buying into an illicit Marv Goux mentorship type of relationship with Pete Carroll. One thing I do know about Pete and that he is and always has been his own man.
What makes it even a little harder to swallow is that Marv has been dead since July of 2002.
I read your list and to be fair there are lots of facts in there. I could make up the same type of list for UW, WSU, Oregon, UCLA, and the entire Pac 10 for that matter and there would be lots of similar stuff in there.
A football program ar any large group is simply a micrcosym of society in general. You are going to have your good stuff and not so good stuff.
Anyway the NCAA is doing a thorough investigation of the USC athletic program. The local newspapers and Yahoo are also sniffing around. If there is anything amiss they will find it.
A note to you Trojans….as usual you are a classy bunch…thanks for reading!
by John Berkowitz on Jun 16, 2009 12:11 PM PDT reply actions
Marv Goux - Pete Carroll
An article ran in the LA Times with Carroll proudly explaining how the first thing he did at USC was seek out Goux to get advice from him… I believe the article ran Dec 2, 2006…the morning of the annual UCLA-USC game… I’ll see if I can get a copy…
Re: the list (compiled by a fan of the Utes)..
please… let’s see what you and your gang can come up with for the rest of the Pac-10 since “good for the game” Pete came to SC…
Game rules..
(1) Any transgressions after August 23, 2001 that would have made the “SC list” if committed SC by must be included on the new “Pac 10 list”.
(2 ) Any items mistakenly omitted from the “SC list” must be added to it.
(3) Any fan of a Pac 10 school (with the exception of USC) must adhere to these rules
(4) As is traditional, all USC fans may ignore any or all rules
(5) Anyone who was a fan of Oregon State during the Dennis Erickson years may apply for an exemption
I’ll start… UCLA: Dragovic (domestic abuse) 2009.. UCLA: EJ Woods (Sexual assault) 2009….
Perhaps Rae Malaluga can loan the police to EJ since EJ has been arraigned.
Current score Pac10 – 2 Pete’s gang – 45
Re: Cheating…
It seems to be part of the culture at USC. I know several alums some with strong and recent ties to the athletic department. None of them believe that USC has a clean program. Many have told me stories to bolster my stance. Unfortunately, most believe it’s OK because “everyone does it”…
The fact is that many schools have vigilant compliance offices. Your “classy bunch” does not and does not care. As Malaluga proudly proclaims that they “own the police”……Sam Dickerson proudly proclaims that Affholter was “more ‘in’ than I was”…and OJ just wants to let us know how things would be “if I did it”. By the way, Marv Goux recruited OJ….
A few minor corrections and rejoinders:
Whether or not Marv Goux recruited OJ Simpson is entirely irrelevant to the nature of Pete Carroll’s teams, and at the time, OJ Simpson hadn’t actually murdered anyone.
Rey Maualuga didn’t say that USC owns the police, he said that he owned the police. Given the arrests for assault, I suspect that he was either mistaken or should have asked for his money back.
Also, the ongoing list of USC infractions, so far as I know, has its origins and is most up-to-date version, at Bruins Nation. Credit, if that’s the right word, should go where it is due.
And finally, you seem to have missed the UCLA player – a punter, perhaps? – who rolled his truck while driving drunk and abandoned his unconscious date (a UCLA athlete herself) while demonstrating his 40, 100, 400, and quarter mile times.
sounds eligible
i think your right about the punter…
get a name and we’ll add it to the list..
got anything else???
Don’t be shy about adding to the “SC list”
Goux-Carroll
you seem like a aware fellow..
do you recall the article of which i spoke.
Are you an USC alum?
if so, when?
………..Bruin, Class of ’75
You're wasting your time...
Rational folk will have a hard time taking anyone seriously when they act like they are on a crusade. You can rant and rave about it all you want (and you have in a few places around the web) but rational people can and will make up their own minds based on what they see as fact and what they perceive as innuendo (heavy on the innuendo here).
People have a hard time taking anyone seriously when their argument is based on blind hatred….Hatred that will burn you up inside, then again it may keep you warm at night.
There isn’t anything a Trojan fan could say to change your mind so why bother.
Moving on…
Great write-up John. We linked you up because it was good. Thanks for letting our guys voice their rebuttals. Sorry to see some cats do their business in your sand box…
Keep up the great work!!!
Toasty or burning????
See there you go…
if not for you no one would know of my past (and future) rantings…
Actually it’s more frustration than hatred…
(although i will admit to having a collection of T-shirts which include Penn State, Michigan, Illinois, Texas (my favorite) and Oklahoma)
Remember, I’m still smarting from Affholter and Dickerson….
I guess it’s possible that Carroll suddenly became a great recruiter and the only advice he got from Goux was legal but… do you really believe that???
If somebody’s spouse turned up dead after asking OJ for marital advice, what would you think???
Remember, Newweasal was originally thought to be a great recruiter and he was a guy dedicated to the college game. How did that turn out???
As I recall from your blog, you seemed ashamed, or at least regretful, about OJ Mayo.
But you, like the rest of the sports world, must have known something was amiss when he chose USC. Did you even consider raising a red flag. Will you revel in a national championship if one can be had because of the limelight Mayo provided???
Let me ask… are you an alum?? We’re you on campus to see Reggie’s tricked out ride
and his extra large diamond studs. What else have you seen that you know isn’t kosher?? Most Trojans I know believe the SC sports program to be dirty; some providing me with anecdotal evidence. They don’t care because “everybody does it”. How do you feel? How do you feel about Goux being idolized? Remember, he was in a position to pull his shenanigans for many years and many championships.
Myself, I cringe ever time I hear “Jim HarricK”. Do you think it’s reasonable that he turned bad because of something he ate on the plane to Rhode Island??? Not a chance! The guy had to be dirty and I would like UCLA to renounce his championship.
Similarly, a failed pro (4th choice) coach, decades removed from the college game isn’t likely to develop a virtual monopoly in 2 years without something extra. USC has reaped a windfall largely at the expense of other Pac10 schools as a result.
The impetus for my involvement in this blog was our host’s assertion that Pete was good for the Pac10. Dirty or clean, his monopolizing of players, in my opnion, has only hurt the league: not to mention the quality players relegated to riding the bench for their entire careers. What do you think????
By the way, while I hope for Newweasal’s success; I pray for his discretion and integrity.
As for toasty or burning… only time and the NCAA will tell….
PS: I also spent too much time ragging on GW Bush…
I guess it’s possible that Carroll suddenly became a great recruiter and the only advice he got from Goux was legal but… do you really believe that???
Why do you insist that Carroll “suddenly” turned into a great recruiter? Do you have some evidence that he wasn’t a great recruiter in his previous college coaching jobs? Do you deny that he’s a very charismatic guy that relates well to kids with a personality that is great for recruiting? I’m simply not following this line of reasoning you have going here…
Fair enough...
He’s what I got..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Carroll
According to the above, Pete was a player at Pacific and graduate assistant until 1978.. I don’t believe GA’s are usually involved in the recruiting process, but “maybe”. The next 5 years were spent as an assistant coach reaching the level of coordinator in 1980.
His coordinator positions were at North Carolina State and Pacific. He then jumped to the NFL and never had a College head coaching job until USC (4th pick) gave him the job.
If he did any recruiting at NC St. and Pacific it ended 17 years before he went to Trojanland. As with most of his career, he was trending downward; going from NC St. to Pacific. Do you honestly believe this could have prepared him for his current role…. 17 years later???
Certainly you will agree that he had no (as in zero) experience leading a recruiting effort. It is quite possible he, like Newweasal, didn’t/doesn’t know the rules. Who in his circle, other that Goux, knew anything about recruiting?
As for his charm, I would agree; but given the evidence of the 45 point list it seems to be charm of an overindulgent ex-husband and I don’t believe it’s strong enough to explain the results. Certainly many parents would balk at this unless provided with other inducements.
Anyway, another of my gripes, is the lack of discipline he fosters. In a sense, if a kid is being promised that he can “own the police” by playing for SC, that should be considered a violation; albeit one that many schools (in Florida) do engage in.
Now tell me what’s more likely..
untapped magic or…..
am I making more sense???
Would you please answer the question in your blue box…
If he did any recruiting at NC St. and Pacific it ended 17 years before he went to Trojanland.
Of course he did recruiting – all the coaches on a coaching staff help out in recruiting.
As with most of his career, he was trending downward; going from NC St. to Pacific.
Uh, really? Trending downward? He went from a grad assistant at Pacific to a grad assistant at Arkansas under Lou Holtz (better school, thus upward career trajectory) to a full-time defensive backfield coach at Iowa State (obviously upward career trajectory) to the same position at Ohio State (a much better program, thus upward career trajectory) to defensive coordinator at North Carolina State (obviously upward career trajectory) to offensive coordinator and assistant head coach at Pacific, his alma mater. This is the only case in his college career where you can question his career path. I would guess the reasoning was that he liked the bump in title to Assistant Head Coach, liked the opportunity to broaden his experience by coaching the offense and liked working with Bob Cope, his buddy who had talked Holtz into hiring Carroll at Arkansas.
Do you honestly believe this could have prepared him for his current role…. 17 years later???
Why wouldn’t it? Carroll had experience recruiting at the college level. Other than dusting off his NCAA rule book, it’s not like he had no idea what college recruiting was all about.
Certainly you will agree that he had no (as in zero) experience leading a recruiting effort.
Are you certain he wasn’t a recruiting coordinator at any of his previous college jobs? And even if he wasn’t, he hired a staff of guys that were experienced recruiters (including retaining Ed Orgeron from Paul Hackett’s staff) and it’s not like recruiting is rocket science. It’s about identifying guys that will be good college players, that will fit your system, and selling them on you, your program and your ability to get them to the next level.
As for his charm, I would agree; but given the evidence of the 45 point list it seems to be charm of an overindulgent ex-husband and I don’t believe it’s strong enough to explain the results.
Really? A charismatic guy with a staff of strong recruiters and who could sell himself as someone that had been a head coach with some success in the NFL and thus knew what it would take to get players prepared for that level having great recruiting success at USC, situated in one of the best recruiting hotbeds in the country? It surprises you that Carroll has been as successful as he’s been?
As an impartial observer (I claim no favorites between USC and UCLA – I’m a Husky fan), I can tell you that you come across as extremely blinded by your Bruins partisanship, and you don’t display a particularly deep understanding of college football with your posts here thus far, and your general lack of knowledge about Carroll and his coaching history doesn’t help your cause.
I’m not saying that Pete Carroll hasn’t bended rules in his recruiting as USC, but I am saying that his success at recruiting doesn’t seem like something that is necessarily evidence of cheating – I can believe that it’s simply he’s been the right guy at the right time to sell that school and has had the right staff around him.
John Thanks for the props
bmtstuff—— Know body CARES
Paul D. Kelley
by so.cal.native1952 on Jun 16, 2009 2:23 PM PDT reply actions
Goux-Carroll.... ad nauseum
as i was saying…
Here’s the link…
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/collegebcs/message/11613
here’s the excerpt…
Shortly after taking the USC job in December 2000, he and
Orgeron drove to Palm Desert to visit Marv Goux, a USC
assistant coach during the program’s halcyon days in the
1960s and ’70s.
“He gave us the plan,” Orgeron said of Goux, who died in
2002. “He let us know how they did it.”
Carroll wanted to “put a fence” around Southern California,
keeping all the best players at home. His staff turned
recruiting into a contest, assistants returning to the
office late at night, comparing notes on how many schools
they had visited………
here’s “the plan”…
It was near the end of his USC career, in 1982, when the NCAA discovered his practice of selling complimentary tickets and placed the team on three years’ probation. “I brought the penalties on myself,” Goux said
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/28/local/me-goux28
Of course there is nothing wrong with asking Goux for advice. I heard that a member of the SC coaching staff is having trouble with his marriage. Do you think it’s a good idea to send him to OJ for advice?
For the record, Marv Goux, a proven and admitted cheater, is still idolized by the USC family.
The Work Ethic of Pete Carroll and his staff
I don’t think there is single staff West of the Rockies that works as hard as Pete and his coaches have since the day they arrived on campus. USC under Carroll takes nothing for granted. They don’t recruit like national champions…they recruit like coaches whose jobs are on the line. The urgency they hae is amazing.
Give credit where credit is due.
Nestor
Nestor is always welcome here and is a good friend of the blog.
If it was not for Nestor I wouldn’t be on SBN.
Congrats to Nestor on the gang at Bruin Nation for their fourth year of being on SBN. By the way they were the first college blog on SBN.
If you are a Trojan I guess that is hard to stomach….but he has been a very good guy towards me.
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