Propaganda?
by John Berkowitz on Apr 30, 2009 10:31 AM PDT
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PrintSportswriters in the Northwest are having a good time with the feud that is going on between UW and WSU.
Jerry Brewer of the Seattle Times has this take.
From the disappointment of the failure of Senate Bill 6116, which would've provided much-needed funding for a Husky Stadium makeover, came this intoxicating, goofy sideshow. Really, it goes back a few days earlier, when the Apple Cup/Qwest Field discussions died, but after watching Washington State fans organize a campaign against the bill, Woodward couldn't help expressing his frustration.
"It was just an irritant, that's the best way to put it," the Washington AD said after witnessing the Cougars' efforts, which included renting a plane to fly a banner over Olympia last week telling legislators to vote down the bill.
John McGrath of the News Tribune is enjoying it all. He especially likes the interplay going on between our blog and Cougar Center.
Now the rhetoric, especially on the blogs, has gotten vitriolic. Those aligned with WSU are fed up with fans of an 0-12 team behaving as elitists. Those aligned with UW are fed up with fans of a traditional conference bottomfeeder interfering with the refurbishment of a college football landmark.
What once was a convergence of good-natured tailgaters has turned into the Crabby Apple Cup, a rivalry suddenly steeped in political, cultural and even personal differences
One of the things I did do yesterday was go back over everything I wrote here and at Coug Center to see if I would have done it differently. Honestly I can't see anything I would change at this point. I also don't think it was presented in an arrogant fashion.
Let's start it off with my original post.
The Husky Point of View
WSU should have stayed out of it and remained neutral at the very least. When you have one of your own trustee’s leading a campaign against it you put yourself and the institution you are unofficially representing on the firing line for really no good apparent reason.
Woodward’s bone of contention is that the WSU administration said they were neutral in public then encouraged the protests in private. In reality what is good for either school is good for the other. WSU should have supported the proposal or just kept quiet.
No matter what Woodward says it was the Cougar group who derailed this. The Senate was on the verge of passing it till the final week when they stepped up the effort. Unfortunately they also ruined any chance for the City of Seattle to claim $30 million from Clay Bennett. The WSU athletic department should hit him up for a donation. He owes you big time!
As far as the Apple Cup goes the two schools could have just switched off being the host and the ticket allocation problem would have been solved. Don’t buy the WSU admin’s argument that the reason the deal folded was because UW wanted 7,000 more tickets allocated on a yearly basis. It simply died because UW decided not to participate after SB 6116 died.
I like Nuss feel this all could have been handled better. I don’t wish WSU any ill will but they certainly crossed a serious line on this one and there will be more payback then just the collapse of the Apple Cup deal. Look forward to a sad era where the schools no longer cooperate with each other in any way.
Who are the losers in all this?
All of Us!
Cougar and Husky fans both end up losing because of the selfish misguided acts of a few morons!
The Coug’s win the battle but will lose a war they never had anything to gain by starting.
Washington will survive just fine but unfortunately WSU has put itself in a position to be hurt for no good reason other than to spit in the eye of the Husky one last time.
My good friend Nuss from Cougar Center responded with this and gave me a 24 hour deadline to respond with links supporting my assertions.
Then dig up some links!Deadlines are deadlines so I responded as quickly as possible and I really was looking forward to the apology.You made three accusations:
1. Sterk and Floyd encouraged the actions of the opponents from behind closed doors.
2. WSU fans killed 6116. Your AD said the opposite.
3. The Apple Cup deal died because UW walked away. Every report says otherwise.Dig up the links that contradict those three erroneous statements and I’ll apologize. We are not in the business of spreading unsubstantiated rumors. If you like that for your site, fine. We don’t like it for ours. So dig up some links. I’ll give you 24 hours from your last comment, at which time I’m just going to ban you because it’s our site and you and your pomposity just won’t take a hint.
What? No Apology? He didn't me like my answers and I received the Crimson and Grey Death Penalty.I guess you can ban me if you want. If the only way you can debate anything is to delete, or ban then I guess it is your problem. I will however take you up on your challenge.
1. "WSU felt it was not appropriate for the institution for us to ask for any stadium support during this legislative session," Sterk said. "The legislature and the governor, they were already facing all the significant challenges of the economic crisis. So that’s why we didn’t take a position."
Up until now they said they were neutral. Today it comes out in the Spokesman Review that they were against it all along.
2. Scott Woodward deflected criticism toward the WSU administration rather then give credit to the Cougar alumni opposition group which is the smart thing to do. Why give credit when it empowers them more? They achieved their goal but left a lot of scorched earth behind them. Once again I don’t think what they did benefits WSU.
Senator Murray however said that they had enough votes for SB6116 to pass in the house but the GOP wavered in their supports after so many emails and phone calls from the Cougar opposition group.
3. Woodward wasn’t as specific as WSU AD Jim Sterk in saying that it broke down over tickets, though he admitted that was part of it
-there was a concern about making sure that as many UW season ticket holders would be able to get in."I think there were other issues out there as well,’’ he said.
Hmmm…other issues as well? Could it be that UW was a little hacked off by what was going on in Olympia?
My sources are telling me that was exactly what happened. Would you expect that to help the negotiations with UW. Putting butts in the seats for the Apple Cup in Husky Stadium has never been a problem by the way.
The ticket issue could have been resolved by each team rotating as the home team each year just like they do now. You know that as well as I do.
Predicitably, you fail again!
1. What part of "that’s why we didn’t take a position" sounds like they were against it all along? Classic John Berkowitz ridiculous leap of logic.
2. The second one has merit … if you think that the guy who made an abysmal mess of the whole thing isn’t going to find someone else to blame. The bottom line is that HE screwed it up by not ensuring that his votes were ironclad. If a bill that had so much else going for it truly was sunk by a handful of vocal WSU boosters, then it was Senator Ed Murray who failed as a politician. I’ve been around the legislative process enough to understand that it’s the backroom deals that get this kind of stuff done. But don’t just take my word for it — take Art Thiel’s.
3. Everything you said here does not back up your original assertion that UW walked away. Rumors and speculation … but no hard, on-the-record facts. Par for the course for you.
I would call that three out of three, although some might argue that’s just two out of three. Get lost.
We did excange a few emails and the final one from him did include an apology for the name calling. in my final email I proposed this solution. I apologize also for calling him a coward for not using his real name on his blog. I have been usisng my real name for over a year now. The reason for it is you really can't be legitimate if you are using an anonymous nickname to hide behind. When you use your own name you are also more careful about what you write.
Nuss,
You actually don't need to ban me...all you had to do is ask me not to post. It isn't like I am trying to ruin what you guys are doing over there. It isn't like I am some troll that you have to monitor every single day.
I just thought it would be interesting for you guys to have a foil.
I enjoy your your blog and I think both you and Grady do a great job. In the same vein I apologize to you guys also because I should have contacted you guys when you first joined SBN and put together some type of game plan with you that would benefit us both. I have a great relationship with SediHawk over at WSU Football. We have done cooperative stuff together over the years when were both on blogger.
In a perfect world we both would work together to make each of our blogs better. There is always going to be a UW/WSU rivalry and bias on both sides. Rather than argue about it lets use it to our advantage. I mean we are talking about a couple of bottom feeders at this point in time.
You talk about multiple incidents and while I respect that I think you are being overly sensitive. Disagreeing and posting a different point of view is healthy. I don't think I was out of line and no I don't think I am posting propaganda. To be honest in this latest salvo Sterk looks like the better person.
I am willing to set whatever bad feelings we have about each other aside since if we actually met each other we just might find plenty to like.
As far as forgiveness goes you were forgiven immediately. I don't hold grudges for more than five minutes.
I know you are both great guys and sometimes things get out of hand. I know I can be a jerk and I apologize for it. I also have to say that it isn't like you guys have been posting your points on my site either.
The bottom line is we should work together as much as we can since for better or worse we are tied together by being loyal Washingtonian's. I always felt if UW gets something WSU should get the same. I also feel Eastern, Central, and Western should benefit to a lesser extent too.
I haven't received an answer yet but we all have our day jobs too. I posted over there during Apple Cup Week to provide a link to our annual Cougar jokes. I actually expected that they would reciprocate with some Husky jokes. It didn't work that way...they didn't like it.
I did do the man and sheep photo after their QB was arrested for being under the influence. They didn't like that either but who didn't think the entire set of circumstances of that arrest where pretty hilarious in retrospect.
During the Pac Ten and NIT I rooted for the Cougars and posted over there a little during the games.
When it comes to remodeling Husky Stadium I will post my feeleings on the situation. I respect their views also and would think they would show me the same courtesy.
So this is Day One of being banned from Cougar Center. WSU and UW are in the middle of a feud that will only heat up over the next year. I think it is fun and it injects a little life into the rivarly between the two worst football teams in the conference.
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That whole thing is ridiculous John...
You had every right to say what you said. You were not “over the top” or profane in any way. If these guys can’t stand a little controversy and disagreement than they need to go back to grade school.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
totally agree with dawgfan22
Your posts were all reasonable and well-intende, and I would say your olive branch email was probably more apologetic than necessary (I don’t think anyone would characterize you as a jerk), but wisely you are taking the high road. If they don’t un-ban you it says volumes about their maturity and ability to discuss/disagree on issues without it becoming personal.
Explicit and Implicit
Explicitly, every thing you say appears to try to placate both sides, a sentiment that I feel we all share. However, implicitly you are kicking a beehive more and more, challenging the cougs to either swallow their pride or keep fighting. And with any rivalry, one side can never admit that the other is correct, it will NEVER happen with people raised adhering to competition their whole lives.
Try seeing the other side. Martin Stadium was just remodeled with no taxpayer money, something that WSU has put a lot of money into. On the flipside, less than a year later with a dwindling economy and cuts all around the state, UW asks for money to… remodel their stadium. People have a very short memory, its never the then or the later, but the now.
There is barely any neutral evidence in this whole ordeal, just objective statements and personal opinions. Both sides cannot claim these, so please do not use them as your argument.
Whoa, hold on a minute there...
How can you say that WSU has remodeled Martin Stadium with private funds whence they are going to the State coffers for $6.7MM per year?!?!?
A dollar is a dollar.
Martin Stadium Remodel
I think it’s great that WSU is attempting to remodel Martin Stadium themselves and I personally think the solution at UW should be something similar.
However, to attempt to equate what WSU did with what UW is attempting to do is way off base, IMO. Phase I and II raised $24MM through student fees and bonding. $24MM won’t get anything close to being done at Husky Stadium so it’s an apples and oranges comparison. Also, Phase III and IV are currently on hold because WSU doesn’t have the money so take pride in what you have done to some extent but now what?
Like I said, it’s great that they are doing it themselves but to try and compare the two projects and say “we did it so why can’t you” is ignoring the financial realities. I mean, the Hec Ed remodel cost more than Martin Stadium.
First of all, I am not a coug. I am simply playin the other side.
Student bases scale along with stadium fees. If UW is attempting something beyond what their student body can support, then things need to be replanned. Hence WSU stopping at phase II, as that is all that they can afford right now.
It's a different animal..
wsu’s is an upgrade. UW’s is a renovation.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
The numbers...
…if in fact the powers that be are correct, and take that with a grain of salt, let’s crunch the numbers. UW has projected maintenance costs for Husky Stadium to be 10 million dollars annually. Potential savings of securing the contract now during this recession are significant, at least 10 percent or 30 million dollars. Add these numbers to the inflationary numbers that are sure to follow if we choose to wait and you have significant savings. I hope we find a way to get this thing started. Even if we did it in phases, I think because of the reasons listed above, we’d be saving money.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
Failed as a politician
Really? I think you misread the PI article.
But just a little bit of reality. You really know how to treat your friends. Having only attended two husky games and never having attended the UW, I should be type of legislator you should thank not bash.
First the bill was always in trouble because of collapse of the economy. Despite my efforts in Olympia, I was unable to make the argument that the various elements of this bill would stimulate the economy and create jobs. This and my commitment to the arts were the reasons I fought for the bill.
Some members believed these taxes should go back to the state because we were cutting 10,000 higher education slots for students and kicking 40,000 people off of health care.
Some member opposed any taxes for any sport.
Others were opposed to the key arena deal and the NBA in particular.
Some (few) opposed continuing the funding for the arts.
The real killer was the ability of some cougar fans to pull off my republican votes. (some of the cougar fans were just out of control, as some of you may have noticed by their comments on the Seattle Times blog….why does the fact that I am gay matter?)
Once these melted away democrats from swing districts started to change their mind.
And again those legislators who want these local taxes returned to the state had a great deal of influence.
I think I am pretty good have counting votes, having lead the successful effort for two gas tax increase and passing a gay rights bill. The votes were going in the other direction.
But….hey…don’t listen to me….I am a failed politician.
I think you misread John’s post – the quoted portion above that calls you a “failed politician” is actually John quoting what Nuss at CougCenter wrote – link here: CougCenter post & comments
John never called you a failed politician.
On the contrary Senator Murray
We all think you are fantastic over here. I personally think you have a lot of courage and are able to look at all the issues in an unbiased way which is so rare in politics these days. What I have noticed by observing your tenure in the legislature is that you are completely committed to doing the right thing.
I watched the SB 6116 hearing. You and Senator Prentice were very impressive.
If a Cougar fan calls you a failed politician take it as a compliment.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 5:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Just to clarify
I did not say Senator Murray is a failed politician; I said he failed to do his part to ensure this thing gained the necessary votes. There was so much misinformation out there — as well as so little education as to what the bill actually called for and did — that I don’t think it’s unfair to lay a good portion of that at the sponsoring politician’s feet.
But as kirkd pointed out over on our thread, there was plenty of blame to go around, something I wholeheartedly agree with:
I think blame for this bill not passing can be spread around a large number of people – the vocal Cougs that organized against it, Senators Murray & Kohl-Welles for not adequately explaining the rationale for this bill to constituents who viewed this as a bad time economically to push for public funding of stadium renovation, Scott Woodward & Mark Emmert for not more effectively lobbying the State legislature to explain why this bill had merit from the point of view of the UW, the City of Seattle for not lobbying effectively enough for the Key Arena component of the bill. It’s not simply Murray’s fault, and it’s not simply the vocal Coug fans fault.
I'm sorry....
…but what are you doing here?
You ban John (who runs this blog) from your blog and then come post here at John’s blog? That logic defies my understanding. Or did you come to your senses and reinstate John?
A full page Ad in the Times would have helped
I think a full page ad in the Seattle Times to educate the general public on the merits of the bill would have greatly helped the cause and the UW certainly could have invested in that. I think one of the biggest reasons for the failure other than our good friends at WSU is the failure to educate the public on what a good deal it was for the taxpayer.
If I was in charge I would have included WSU in some way even though they had no right to taxes generated in King County. I think they saw it more as a giveaway they were not being cut in on.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Mr. "Ed"
Actually “Ed” I think you and the other politicians failed both the cougs and the Huskies. Obviously support for college athletics doesn’t exist in the state of Washington. Great move “Ed” using this issue to completely wash your hands of supporting any and all college athletics in our state. Meanwhile our smaller neighbor to the south of us IS supporting college athletics and “somehow” managed to support both the ducks and the beavs in their capital projects.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
dawgfan22
Wow! I am not sporting college athletics after having stood up as your main advocate? You completely missed the point of my blog entry. But keep it up, if this is how you treat friends, you are sure to always lose.
No, you're not sporting college athletics!...
…you’re not even supporting them.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
Dawgfan 22 you are way,way, way out of line!
I don’t think you understand how politics work.
What Senator Murray is doing is giving the Cougars what they are asking for by firmly placing the shoe on the other foot. I think what he said, did, and what he would write in a bill is just brilliant. Senator Ed has courage typed in capital letters. He just happens to be a political hero of mine.
If this thing is ever going to turn around the opposition needs to be pressured. As I have asserted from the beginning while the WSU administration has been publically neutral in private they encouraged this behavior. Since a WSU trustee actually testified during the hearing and led the charge it is prettty easy to put two and two together.
You need to understand posturing and how it works…read between the lines for gosh sakes!
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 5:45 AM PDT up reply actions
That's not Ed Murray...
…it’s probably a coug. I agree with the part about punishing wsu. But if in fact something like this was passed it would hurt UW too.
By the way was wsu in there twisting arms? No, the politicianswere the ones who made this decision, not wsu.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
It is actually the real Senator Ed Murray and he is a member of the blog. So once again your comments were way out of line. You would be very surprised to find out exactly who subscribes to this blog, reads it, and seldom makes a post. We have over 1200 readers per day during the off season! I expect it to spike to around 5000 once the season begins.
Politicians bow to the will of the constituents. Ed had the votes needed to pass the bill until the Cougars mounted the final charge.
In reality no decision was ever made because it never progressed to the actual voting stage of the process.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions
No kidding!
dawgfan22 – your logic is not making any sense. Sen. Murray is one of the ONLY friends and allies we have in the state Senate right now. I think my lucky stars that we have someone like him to stand up for all things UW.
Respectfully
You need to rethink that one.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Sen Murray
We personally thank you and Sen Kohl-Welles for your efforts in SB6116. We live and vote in California, have season tickets for both Husky football and basketball. We are very aware of the user fees (tax) on rental cars, hotels and restaurants as we are reminded every game trip. This was a no-brainer for the Washington legislature to stand up and jump start the sluggish economy with matching private funds in construction jobs and subsequent increased tax revenues. Its too bad more of your colleagues haven’t read or practiced JFK’s book Profiles in Courage and do not what was politically expedient but what made sense for the state of Washington.
Thank you again sincerely for your efforts. Roland and Vicky Yoshida
I don't want to throw gasoline on the fire,
but this is why I once put on my online dating profile (go ahead and poke fun, I can take a little jesting unlike Cougar’s fans) “if you went to a college in state, I’d prefer it to be a good college. So UW only I guess. Maybe Seattle U.”
McCoy McCoy 2010, also acceptable, Russell Okung, Ndamukong Suh, Dez Bryant, Ciron Black, Trent Williams, and Bryan Baluga.
Don't be so sensitive to "sheep jokes"
sheep are animals and animals are friends…and food!
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
The real question
Which animal is the dumbest, the sheep, or the cougar?
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
Grady
If you ask another question like that I will have to ban you….LOL…just kidding.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Recruiting?
John, an update on recruiting would be great. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m ready to move on to recruiting news if you happen to have any.
Even a thread talking about possible options for the stadium going into the future would be great. This whole thing with the stadium bill and the Cougs has put us all into a sour mood I think.
Cougars just keep on Coug'n it!
Sounds to me like Nuss is a communist! If you don’t agree with him, you are not allowed to speak! I find it quite ironic that anybody in the “media” would be dumb enough to ban somebody for having a valid opinion and speaking it in a civil manner. Nuss, your freedom of speech needs to be taken away.
If Wazzu has been supported from the WSU’s general budget for at least the last fifty years, the UW should be given the $150 million to make up for the lack of equal funding all of these years. I think this whole feud is the best thing to ever happen, it will encourage the UW and all of the people supporting it to renew their hatred for WSU and do everything possible to crush them at each and every turn. I can’t wait for the Apple Cup!!!
John – Don’t apologize, don’t go easy on them, hit them where it counts.
Nuss – Take your communist attitude and shove it up your WAZZU!!!!!!
P.S. – I LOVE rivalries!
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
To be fair, the stance that Nuss is taking is that he’s not willing to allow assertions to be made about people that can’t be backed up by verifiable evidence. Some of what John is suggesting about Sterk & Floyd is conjecture and/or off the record info that can’t be verified.
Ya, but I really love giving Cougars a hard time!
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
But is it an offense? (Though it may be offensive to some)
One worthy of being banned from a blog? This is a Sports blog, how much of this stuff is even verifiable? This isn’t a court of law. If everything had to be somehow “verified” there wouldn’t be much that could be discussed.
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just clarifying what the “last straw” was. And AFAIK, they’ve already buried the hatchet, so it’s all moot.
Well I'm glad they kissed and made up...
…IMO when John threw out the “sheep” card, that was the proverbial “last straw”. ;O)
Washington Husky Football-1991 National Champions
The Sheep Card
I thought it was funny and apropo for the time.
As you can tell by the Monty Python clip I am not about to change.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 5:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sure John's an attractive guy
But there will be no kissing. Maybe an affectionate man hug — not of the Rocky III type, by the way — but that’s as far as I’m willing to go.
(Sorry, the formatting got messed up on the previous one. This is what happens when I try to be funny.)
I'd like some proof...
rather than logic coupled with sound reasoning.
Am I Apollo or Rocky?
I just love those films. The music just gets me fired up!
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Your choice
I was always kind of partial to Apollo. Mostly from what happened in Rocky IV. Damn Drago!
This is true.
However the conjecture I am using is also true but not verifiable at this point in time because of my interest in protecting the sources I have.
I think the one verifiable fact that a WSU trustee led the opposition and spoke at the SB6116 hearing should be enough for most to put two and two together. This however is not the only thing I am basing these assertions on. It will all come out in the wash over time. I also think Scott Woodwards recent comments about being disapointed in the leadership at WSU is very telling in this matter.
Remember that I would never print anything that I did not firmly believe was true.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Nuss and I are going to work it out. We are trying to find some common ground and are succeeding in private. You have to remember that both Gardy and Nuss are both good guys despite their Cougishness.
by John Berkowitz on May 1, 2009 5:50 AM PDT up reply actions
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