B Roy on accountability
by Gekko Mojo on Oct 27, 2009 7:17 AM PDT
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Given that many of you are not Blazer fans, I'm sure you may have lost track of Brandon Roy a little bit. Here is a LINK to remind you all of what true leadership and accountability are in sports. Brandon is quickly becoming one of the most accomplished professional athletes to ever have been produced by our university.
And now I have to find a few more words to get to the 75 word minimum. How about, Go DAWGS, Go BLAZERS
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That’s awesome. I hate the NBA because of their role in the theft of the Sonics, but I’ll always love B-Roy and wish him success. He’s one of the easiest guys around to root for, kind of an Edgar Martinez of basketball for me. But maybe even better than Edgar.
its ok for you to conver to a Blazer's fan.
… Portlanders have no problem adopting the Mariners and the Seahawks as their home teams!
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
If I were to ever watch the NBA again, I’d watch the Blazers. But I’m standing firm – when the NBA actively participated in the theft of the Sonics, I vowed to stop following their corrupt league.
In time I may soften my stance – if we are granted an expansion team for example, or if I have kids and there is a local team that they follow actively. But for the foreseeable future, the NBA is dead to me. F them.
That just about sums it up, well said.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
Hate the players ...
… but don’t hate the game.
The NBA is a much better product than what it was 10 years ago. The thugs are mostly out, the parity is strong and the superstars are fun to root for (who doesn’t love LeBron’s Kid’n’Play commercial?). Best of all, we have Huskies all over the league: BRoy is an all-star and one of the best talents in the league, Nate is a human highlight reel, Hawes is starting to become a very good C and Brockman gets to be his teammate. Add in “almost-Dawg” Martell Webster, Will Conroy continuing to hang around, Bobby Jones getting the occassional shot and the prospect of Isaiah coming out in the next year or two and there is a purple cloak beginning to cover the league.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Funny you used those lines... here's something I wrote yesterday as the season began...
First, prefacing this— I am— check that WAS a Seattle SuperSonics fan, a former college basketball player and lover of the game of basketball. The NBA was my favorite sporting event to follow growing up, but I have completely ended my relationship with the NBA at, what I think, was its bequest.
I’ve heard many reasons why we lost the Sonics, even that it was the fault of the fans. I disagree completely.
All the fan wanted was basketball to watch. Blame those that made the basketball bad and the cost prohibitive. Blame those that didn’t adjust to keep their fanbase and instead behaved smugly assuming we would just cheer at their empty parade.
The fan IS the game.
Once upon a time, long long before the NBA but considerably after Dr. James Naismith put peach baskets up in a gymnasium, it started with guys playing ball— they played because they enjoyed playing. They played for the thrill of it, for the pure joy of competition, for the challenge and mastery, and all the myriad of reasons we pick up sport as a hobby.
Then something happened. They actually got pretty good and it. And what’s more, it was interesting to watch. But they still played the game because they were good at it, and loved it, loved to play the game.
And more people saw, and word spread, and some even came from distances to admire their exploits.
Eventually, enough of these folks, these “fans” wanted to see the game, and then someone realized there was money to be made in the process.
That was when “The Game” was truly born.
But sadly something else happened at the same time. Money corrupted. Over time, everyone getting the money became more concerned with money and the hustle than the actual playing of the game… as we stand now, far down those treacherous currents has traveled “The Game.”
But remember, without the fan, there is no “Game,” only game.
Players will play, and the fan will always be there watching, and paying what they can, as long as “The Game” treats the fan well. And the game always has treated the fan and the player well, and it always will. It did at the birth of it all, and it will the day of the death of it all.
But, despite the game always being there for the fan and player, “The Game” forgot that.
Hence, don’t blame the fan.
Don’t even blame the player, but blame “The Game.”
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 29, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Money corrputed?
Are you kidding me? We are talking about PROFESSIONAL SPORTS. The whole concept exists in order to feed a profit motive. Seattle fans really don’t have much of a valid argument in the whole Sonics fiasco. I know it sucks to have lost the team, but it is not like a crime, or even an illogical action, was taken in this situation.
The NBA really is putting up its best product in a decade. The infusion of so many Huskies into the NBA fabric is fun. The Blazers have Seattle roots up and down their organization – from their owner, who has generated his own micro-economy in Seattle (one that I’m sure employs a few of you), to the coach who is a local legend, to their star player to their starting small forward and several assistants to boot. Let go of your irrational frustration and come on back into the fold. The Blazers are there for you.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
How is it irrational?
The product on the floor may be sprite, but the NBA is rotting from the inside out. You are right, the whole thing exists to feed a profit motive, but when you put the profit ahead of the fans, you lose the profit when you eventually lose the fans. And, they lost me. Why the hell SHOULD I come back? Because there’s a great product on the floor in the college game as well. There is a pure form all across our land in high school ball. Your team having some roots in Seattle doesn’t make any difference when David Stern clear cut our forests.
And it is an illogical action that was taken. When you destroy a major media market for your business in order to go to a smaller one, you are behaving irrationally, even if things aren’t exactly as you would like in the larger market.
I know I’m not the only fan that will not be coming back if they steal another fan’s team to give it to us. Nope, I’m done till David Stern is done, plain and simple.
IF they fixed the broken salary cap/guaranteed contract/most valuable player in every trade is the guy who is overpaid and never plays but has an expiring contract situation, you might be able to perk my ears.
If it is putting up its best product in a decade, why are so many arenas NOT selling out, struggling to keep fans, etc? Why is the NBA far and away the 3rd fiddle to MLB and in particular the NFL?
I actually live in Denver now, the Nuggets are “there for me” too if I wanted them. I don’t. I watch enough basketball with the college game and high school. Screw the NBA. They already screwed me, after all.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 30, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
F*** the NBA. Are they the only culprits in Sonicsgate? No. But they were the driving factor. Is the NBA the only professional league that blackmails regional governments into giving them huge subsidies? No, but they are the worst offenders. And they are the league that stole one of my teams.
All of the professional leagues have blood on their hands – they’ve all used threats of relocation to extort tax money to subsidize their private businesses. They’ve all moved teams to put teeth into their threats.
But the NBA has made some of the most curious moves, including moving the Hornets from Charlotte to New Orleans and now the Sonics to Oklahoma City. The only way moving from Seattle to Oklahoma City makes any sense for the NBA financially is by serving as a threat to other regions. The Seattle media market it far better than Oklahoma City, and now Seattle looms as a huge threat to other troubled franchises such as the Hornets and Grizzlies. You say it wasn’t an illogical action – I disagree. Moving from the #13 (or so) media market to the #41 (or so) market doesn’t make any sense. It only makes sense in the larger plan of the NBA to continue propping itself up on the backs of taxpayers by extorting fan loyalty to extract regional tax dollars, pitting regions of the country against each other.
Stern & the NBA could’ve had NBA basketball in Seattle with a new arena and fantastically well-financed ownership led by Steve Ballmer and rewarded their flunky Clay Bennett & Oklahoma City by moving a different team or expanding. But they were impatient and didn’t want to be seen as too flexible – they wanted their threats to other regions to mean something.
This is not to absolve Howard Schultz, Clay Bennett, Greg Nickels, Christine Gregoire, Frank Chopp & Chris Van Dyk for their roles in this mess – they were all key parts of the theft as well.
But I see no reason why I should continue to support the NBA. They made a calculated business decision to steal away the Sonics. If they value me a fan so little, then I will take the same business like approach. I have plenty of other things I can do with my time – first and foremost paying a lot more attention to college basketball and the Huskies in particular.
So f*** the NBA and David Stern.
by kirkd on Oct 30, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said.
And obviously from my posts above, I agree completely.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 30, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
ok ok ok
… I can see you guys are still really bitter about the whole sonics thing. I thought a year passed should have done it by now, but I guess not.
So, here is the irrational part – your disdain for the entire NBA is premised on your hatred for the commissioner. Your hatred for the commissioner is premised on your perception of his involvement in the franchise relocation. So, you now hate something that you used to love because of nothing that actually happened on the court. If that is your logic, then:
… you must have hated the Huskies because of Gerb
… you must have hated the Seahawks because of Ken Behring
… you must have hated the Mariners because of Jeff Smulyan
… you must have hated the USA if you voted for George Bush
… you must have hated Indiana Jones because of the Crystal Skull
Obviously, I’m being fecitious, but you get my point. Stern has nothing to do with the product being put on the court by the owners. Stern has nothing to do with the fact that the game is as entertaining as its ever been. Stern has nothing to do with the fact that the players are of the highest caliber in terms of character and entertainment value that we’ve seen since in any era. Stern has nothing to do with the fact that UW players that you loved within the past few season are now painting a purple landscape across the league.
Go ahead, hate the man, but don’t hate the game.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Your analogies don’t work so well. Gerb damaged the UW football program with his actions, but did not cause the program to go away.
Behring was unsuccessful in spiriting away the Seahawks, as was Smulyan with the Mariners.
That’s the key point you are missing – Stern was an active participant in stealing away my team.
Stern actively participated in an illogical theft of the Sonics from Seattle, because his league’s financial system is now based on the ability of his league to blackmail taxpayers to subsidize a private business entity, and that blackmail only works if the threat is perceived as real. How more real of a threat can you get than moving a franchise that had been in place for 41 years, won an NBA championship and was in the 13th largest media market in the country?
I have plenty of outlets for basketball, including the UW.
scapegoating.
The bottom line here is very simple – the man who OWNS the franchise wanted to move it. The Commissioner works for these men (not vice versa). There is no more to this story. Hating on Stern only gives you a villain that you feel you have some leverage against.
I would really like to know how you can justify calling this action a “theft”.
Either way, the Blazers are a nice product with tons of Seattle ties and a worthy team to call your own. They had nothing to do with the loss of Sonics.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
You can call it scapegoating.
Your “bottom line here is very simple” is a stupid thing to say. Seriously.
Sports teams whose owners chose to leave open up the possibility of cutting their teams/league off from sizable fan bases through moving teams. Sometimes it has worked, but in this day and age of vast entertainment opportunity, when you make the decision to move a team, you make the decision to cut yourself off from a fan base/marketing base/dollar base.
They did so. They decided to cut away from the 14th largest media market.
You can say the commish works for the owners, but that’s only a partial truth. The commish should work for the BETTERMENT OF THE LEAGUE. Stealing a franchise from a large market and an established fan base in order to move it to a smaller market is not in the betterment of the league in a forest view, only in a trees view.
There are a lot of franchises in worse trouble than the Sonics were (the Grizzlies in their 2nd home in a short history, the Bucks, the Hornets, among others). Hell, there are winning franchises in financially tight situations. It’s a bad product when the Spurs are financially struggling despite being among the league elites. The owners could have worked together to get Clayton Bennett in one of those, or some other of a 1000 scenarios that would have included keeping the Sonics in Seattle and giving OK City a franchise.
As far as “theft” and justification of the term— the only team that I know of that is owned by the fans is the Green Bay Packers, but every team in every league is “owned” by the fans in an emotional sense. Clayton Bennett had 2 years history with the team, we had lifetimes. To say, “but he owned it and you just watched it” is to say the fans don’t matter. And that is why, to me as a fan, the league no longer matters. When the league decided I don’t matter, emotionally stealing from me, I decided it will no longer get a penny of my money directly, and as little as possible indirectly.
To say something like “I would really like to know how you can justify calling this action a theft” shows why you just can’t understand how hard this was for us. You think the team belongs to the owner, not the fans. You think the commish works for the owners and not the league as a whole. You don’t think like a true fan, you have a myopic view that is centered on “I like the Trailblazers in the NBA and you should too,” because of a (what I see as a) randomly stupid reason— there are Seattle ties.
Under your construct, shouldn’t I be a Thunder fan? There are far more Seattle ties on that team than yours. Or, should I not, because it isn’t my team anymore? Wait, it never was my team. It was the owner’s team.
Wait, why the f*** should I give a rat’s ass about anyone else’s property?!?!? The league doesn’t belong to me, I can’t afford to buy a team, I guess I have no ownership. No ownership, no reason to care. I might as well find something else that belongs to someone else and follow it, it is equally valuable to me as another man’s professional basketball team.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 1, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
Nicely put. Gekko can spin it any way he wants, but it was theft and Stern played an active role in it. There were options, and he chose to rob Seattle of the Sonics rather than pursue the alternatives, all because Seattle and the state were not so eager to bow down before the league’s extortion business model.
I’m glad for B Roy and Brockman and Hawes and all the UW guys succeeding in the NBA – I really am. But I’m just fine watching the UW while they’re at the UW and ignoring the NBA.
When the NBA decides to expand to Seattle and we are granted all of our NBA history back along with our name, I may reconsider my decision to write off the NBA. But until that time comes, f*** the NBA.
Future News: September 1, 2013.
In Hypothetical Land, the Portland Trailblazers and their owner Paul Allen have decided that despite enjoying the wonderful city of Portland, Mr. Allen wants to watch all his team’s games in the place he grew up in, Seattle Washington.
Despite the recent modernization of the Rose Garden and some massive tax breaks to assist the franchise’s bottom line, as owner of the team and among the richest owners in all of professional sports, Mr. Allen decided that none of this really mattered compared to having the team in Seattle. Mr. Allen looks forward to watching the games live without the travel difficulties of commuting to Portland.
Mr. Allen, in a move of graciousness toward his Seattle Seahawk fans, has agreed to rename the team the SuperSonics. He would also like to give thanks to the city and fans of Portland for being such good sports about the whole matter. But as owner, he has the right to exercise his choice and move the team to where he would most like to see it.
Portland fans, in a charitable act of kindness on Mr. Allen’s part, he will allow you to retain your right to purchase/retain your season tickets as long as you’ve already purchased a PSL. However, while you do have first rights, you will have to repurchase the PSL since the city, arena and team name will have changed.
…
Now if this happened, Gekko you might be able to accept it and still be a fan considering you have ties to both cities. I have a suspicion most Blazer fans will not renew their season tickets, however. (Admittedly I don’t know if there are PSL’s in Portland, but it seemed fitting to add that.)
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 1, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
You are WAY off base.
Well, your date is way off base! If Paul Allen were to move the Trailblazers to Seattle, I’m sure the announcement would be near the end of the basketball season, not September 1st, more like July 1st. Besides that, I think you might be on to something, great comment!
As much as I’d hate to steal a team from another city, maybe then people will feel our pain and understand why we are so pissed off about the theft of the Sonics.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
So you are saying that you would be a fan of a Portland franchise relocated to Seattle?
If that ain’t the pot calling the kettle black.
Sorry guys – we need to end this chain. I honestly do not mean to be rubbing any salt in the wound.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
So you are saying that you would be a fan of a Portland franchise relocated to Seattle?
Where did he say he’d be a fan of it? He was pointing out a hypothetical future for the Blazers. And as he said, while such a move might not upset you so much, how happy do you suppose most Blazer fans would be about it?
of course it would upset me ...
… but would I resort to misdirected anger and harboring resentment? Owners of privately held franchises have a profit motive and will make whatever moves are in their best interest. I’m still missing why we think that is somehow illegal (theft) or immoral.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Fine. They have that right, the right to move the franchise.
I have the right to think it is unethical, even if you don’t think it is.
They have the right to make moves in their best interest. Fine. I also have the right to make whatever moves are in my best interest. And my best interest is to put my time, attention, dollars and focus on things that interest me more than the NBA does.
I’m honestly more interested in Tim Donaghy’s book than actually watching an NBA game this year.
I have no desire to follow the NBA anymore. It isn’t misdirected anger, it isn’t harboring resentment. It’s just nothing. I’m dead in their eyes, no longer exist in their value system, they’re dead in mine, and no longer exist in mine. The emotion was there, but last year my life moved on just fine without the NBA, and it will continue to do so.
I now watch the NBA like I do World Cup Soccer involving teams playing from other nations while at Buffalo Wild Wings. I might watch for a few minutes, but there is no connective tissue for me with the action, so I lose interest and go back to the bar trivia on the side TV.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 2:00 AM PST up reply actions
Good question...
either the mango habenero or the garlic parm… opposite sides of the scale. Unfortunately my stomach doesn’t allow me to indulge in anything in the upper third of the heat-meter very often.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
Once again whiskey, you nailed it:
They have the right to make moves in their best interest. Fine. I also have the right to make whatever moves are in my best interest. And my best interest is to put my time, attention, dollars and focus on things that interest me more than the NBA does.
The NBA decided that I didn’t matter anymore, nor did anyone else in this, the #13 media market in the country. Our 41 years of being fans didn’t mean anything. The momentum that was brewing with Steve Ballmer’s ownership group, his arena proposal and the assent of the City of Seattle to his plan – that wasn’t important to the NBA.
No, what was important was using Seattle as an example to the rest of the country, that the NBA was cold-blooded enough to move any franchise if their home city didn’t bend over backwards to do whatever the NBA wanted.
Why you fail to grasp this Gekko is baffling…
Exactly
Gekko must be from the Star Trek universe where people are more enlightened and have no emotions. The NBA comes in and takes away a team that has been here for 41 years, and he expects the fans to get over it within a year? Now that Willingham has been gone for almost a year, maybe we should give him a Nobel Peace Prize to show him there are no hard feelings!
And anybody that thinks the NBA wasn’t completely involved and liable for the theft of the Sonics, has lost all touch with reality.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
I don't grasp it ...
… you keep going on about the “NBA making a decision”. The NBA is a league comprised of franchises owned by distinct legal enterprises. The NBA doesn’t “decide” anything – franchise owners do. The NBA administration works for those owners. The authority goes in the opposite direction of what you think it does. So what if Ballmer had an ownership group – if Bennett doesn’t want to sell, does it matter? Or should he be “forced” to? And, if so, who has the legal standing to force him to?
Why you fail to grasp that baffles me. But I see that you need a villain here. The owners pay Stern to be a villain – to fans, to players and to sponsors. It is just the way it goes.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
The franchises work together and are dependent on one another.
Therefor it is not simply the best interest of the individual franchise, but the league as a whole. If it were simply the whims of an owner and the owner’s right to move, the Seahawks would be in SoCal right now. Ken Behring attempted to pack up and move, and the commish at the time (can’t recall if it was Tags or Rozell) said, “Uhm, NO YOU ARE NOT.”
Your saying the commish works for the owners and the owners hold all the power is as naive as saying the president works for the people of our country and the people hold all the power. They don’t, and the president makes decisions he or she deems in the best interests of the country as a whole.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, the NBA made a decision. Or did you forget about the NBA Board of Governers meeting that approved the relocation of the Sonics to Oklahoma City? The NBA is the collective of owners and their leader/representative Stern. They as a whole enjoy their ability to blackmail municipalities into giving them huge subsidies. And I’m sure Stern reminds all of them of what that strategy does for their franchise values when they meet.
What could the NBA and Stern have done? They could’ve assured Bennett that he’d get the next relocated franchise and told him to enjoy the profit he’d have made by selling the Sonics to Ballmer’s group. And as it turned out, he and Aubrey McClendon probably would’ve better off had that happened.
Nothing you said above disputes my point about the NBA. But you do paint a naive view on the power that Stern has and his involvement in NBA decisions. Stern is the ringleader, the guy focused on the league and league business and what he thinks is best for the league. The owners are a disparate group of people, many with other businesses to run that are their primary responsibility – they rely on Stern to take the lead on league business. Very few owners are willing to publicly buck Stern due to the power that he has.
I don’t need a “villain” – there are plenty to go around as I’ve stated before. Stern is just one of many. But his role is a big part of why I’ve abandoned the NBA just like they abandoned me. Stern is just fine being the “villain”, otherwise he would resign his post.
ok.
I’m naive. I get it. I’m an idiot. I’ve been popping stupid pills for two weeks now. I’m letting you guys have the last word.
Whoever said that Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned has yet to meet a bitter Sonics fan.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Don't forget Cleveland fans
They still have a chip on their shoulder over losing the Browns, and they even got “their” team back.
We aren’t the only ones who are mad, check any town that lost their team. It’s naive to think we wouldn’t be pissed off about it.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
But even then...
You didn’t. You didn’t “let us have the last word.” You threw out a one liner about us having fury, scorned and bitter. It isn’t completely true.
Really, I’m not. As I said below, I read your link. And I love BRoy’s game, his personality, his grace on the court. I’ve found for a long time that I enjoy reading the NBA game more than watching it.
The article was far more interesting than watching an NBA game. I’ll keep reading about him here and there when I see something that looks intriguing, but I just don’t really find the NBA game that compelling anymore. Honestly, I haven’t since I stopped playing college ball.
They might be the most gifted athletes in the world, but they don’t play with a sense of urgency until the postseason, and I just don’t like basketball that doesn’t have that sense of urgency.
A sense of urgency matters to me far more than the talent of the players. I’d rather watch a jv high school game that is an absolute war, than an NBA game in month 1 of the regular season— and that goes Sonics or no Sonics in existence.
You’ll find among many basketball fans that I’m not the only one that voices that opinion, particularly among those that played the game post high school.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
I should have included, "or coached it."
on that last sentence.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
You thought a single year passing would suddenly make it like they didn't steal our team?!?
Really?!?? I mean, seriously. In an alternate universe when the NBA takes the Blazers from you, you gonna head north to Seattle and support the Sonics one year later? You love a girl, she breaks up with you and sends you a wedding invite, you gonna go? F*** that. Seriously.
Your analogies are so wildly incomparable that I don’t even understand how you could think it is the same thing.
You are missing something else. My disdain for the NBA is not based solely on the commish, though he admittedly gets the bulk of it.
It was under his watch that the NBA grew to heights unparalleled however there are serious cracks in the foundation. You are missing it because your team is currently good and fun and you are enjoying the hell out of it. Which is fine. But that doesn’t mean that I (without my team) am going to enjoy the game.
I don’t know if you read TMQ (Tuesday Morning Quarterback) over at ESPN page 2, but he has pointed out a couple of ridiculous things about the NBA lately, trades where teams trade players and picks just to cut guys, players getting traded that haven’t been in the league for 2-3 years but traded because their expiring contract is a commodity. Stupid stuff like that.
I’m not saying it because he said it, I’m saying it because I remember tons of past situations just like it. The NBA is ridiculous, its salary cap and guaranteed money are absurd. Players make too damn much, meanwhile we subsidize them. Nope. I’m done. I don’t want anything to do with it until the fix the business model, and frankly I hope the model collapses. It deserves to.
Look, I’m gonna hate the man. And, I’m gonna not like the NBA, “The Game.” But that doesn’t mean I don’t still love basketball. Love the game of basketball, just not gonna pay or even follow a corrupt version of it that did me very very wrong. That is all.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 31, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
"Players make too damn much" ...
… that’s funny. You may not even appreciate how funny that is. Capitalism stinks, comrade.
Honestly, I didn’t mean to hit such a sensitive nerve with you guys. I was just trying to point out that the UW influence in the NBA is at an all time high and a UW alum is now a top 10 NBA performer. Its a fun time for UW fans who enjoy the game.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Why is that funny?
Players do make too much, and they make too much guaranteed money in particular. I have no problem with people making a ton of money, though I do admit I don’t like it when they make excessive money due to public funding for them to do so, and when it is me that essentially pays their salary through product purchase, etc.
I’m not going to do it. Will I boycott products they endorse? No.
Am I happy there are a lot of Washington roots in currently in the NBA? Certainly. I watched them in college. I saw a few, including Roy, in high school. Saw Roy in the state tourney his sophomore year, when his older brother? Ed Roy was Garfield’s leading scorer. Saw him lose a game in either single or double OT in the state playoffs his senior year against Foss when the Eastern guy, Marc Axton had the finest game I’ve ever seen a high school player have. It was an incredible game, with a ton of interesting talent on the floor.
Does all that mean it’s a fun time for “UW fans who enjoy the [NBA] game?” Not at all. It’s not a fun time for a UW fan, if that UW fan also followed the Sonics. It’s a time to reevaluate the NBA, and in doing so I decided there’s enough good basketball out there that I will let it go.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 1, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
So you would like to see the NBA go not-for-profit?
… or are you more of a “coordinated economy” kind of guy? Heaven forbid the market should dictate value.
I also find it ironic that you have no problem with public funds going right into the richest DC contract in the Pac 10, but I digress.
Have fun shouldering that grudge.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
I also find it ironic that you have no problem with public funds going right into the richest DC contract in the Pac 10, but I digress.
What public funds? The UW AD is self-supporting, at least until such a date as a Husky Stadium renovation gets public assistance…
Technically true I suppose. But the point remains – the funds that pay for Nick Holt are all generated by football revenue and private donations. No tax dollars go to pay his salary.
So why should he have any issues with those “public” funds going to Holt?
You’re reaaaaaallllly reaching here Gekko.
Yeah. That's exactly what I said...
Except for the “exact” part, and the “what i said part.”
I said I don’t like the fact that they have guaranteed contracts, and that I chose not to directly pay for them to acquire the money on those contracts. In no place did I say I wanted the NBA to not be for profit, nor did I say I wanted a coordinated economy. I do not want to subsidize their economic profit though. That’s pretty simple, isn’t it?
I do, however, think that NFL players play at a different level of focus and intensity, and I fully believe the fact that their contracts are not guaranteed plays a part in that. That’s one reason why I am against their large and guaranteed contracts.
I also find something ironic. A) You chose to introduce the UW DC as if that had ANYTHING to do with an argument involving the Sonics/NBA and my dislike and their incredibly high salaries. B) You assumed that I have no problem with his salary, though I didn’t say I did or didn’t.
As far as the market dictating value— it has. Look around, man. The NBA by week 3 will have plenty of stadiums not selling out their games. If they had the same blackout rules as the NFL, they would have a lot more non-televised local games— in multiple markets.
If the market truly dictated value, there would be no public subsidizing of stadiums. Teams would build stadiums to get the people to come to the games, instead of people building stadiums for the team to come to the stadium… do you really think the market dictated the team should have left? Do you really think Clayton Bennett, for all his love of Oklahoma, would have moved the team if HE and not the people of Oklahoma had to build the stadium?!?? Which do you want, market economy or not? In a market economy, the 14th largest market with one of the wealthier economies in the nation seems like a pretty good place to field your product.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 1, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
I really want to end this chain, but these long rants are entertaining.
… this point of publicly subsidized stadiums continues to befuddle me. Municipalities make investments in infrastructure in order to generate some kind of direct or indirect return. OKC effectively outbid Seattle in the eyes of the only man who mattered in the decision – the owner. This whole 14th largest market hogwash is tired. If this logic held water, we’d have 5 football teams in New York and 4 in Los Angeles.
For what it is worth, I’m pretty sure the Thunder finished among the top of the NBA in terms of average attendance/capacity. That’s a pretty strong showing for a horrible team.
I’m really sorry for the Sonics and, for what it is worth, I much preferred them to stay in Seattle. Still, the Blazers will be there for you when you decide to come back.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
The NBA sucks.
Not coming back. Happy I’m not, for the record.
Not angry, I passed that stage. Not carrying a grudge. Sad? Yeah. Disappointed? Certainly. Feel I’m better off without her? Absolutely.
It’s a breakup. It didn’t work out, I’m moving on.
Oh, and as far as the Blazers waiting for me, I’m not interested in dating her ugly sister.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 1:51 AM PST up reply actions
This whole 14th largest market hogwash is tired. If this logic held water, we’d have 5 football teams in New York and 4 in Los Angeles.
If it were a true free market for professional leagues, there would absolutely be many more teams in those markets. But the leagues themselves control that.
You’re insane if you don’t think the size of the media markets doesn’t play a big role for the leagues when they negotiate their TV contracts. The NBA simply decided they were willing to take the hit on swapping Seattle for Oklahoma City because they valued the leverage that they gained in showing their willingness to move franchises – they figure that leverage will pay off in their ability to blackmail municipalities into ever greater public subsidies.
Municipalities make investments in infrastructure in order to generate some kind of direct or indirect return.
The difference between a municipality building roads to support Microsoft expansion, or a state granting tax breaks to Boeing to entice them to continue building planes here vs. a municipality paying 80% of a stadium for an NBA team with all profits going to the team is that the investments in businesses like Microsoft & Boeing actually provide material return in the form of boosting the economic activity in the region.
Professional teams on the other hand are basically net zero in terms of local economy – that’s been shown over & over again by economic studies. The value of local teams is almost entirely in terms of civic pride and community building.
so, tell me why there is not an NFL franchise in LA?
… the reason is because “local media markets” are almost irrelevant to the economic model of pro sports. Revenue generated by local advertisers pales in comparison to gate revenues, TV / Cable revenues, licensing and merchandise sales.
So, yes, 14th largest media market is mostly irrelevant.
As for my “return” quote that you blocked – I agree with your last argument, which I why I said “direct or indirect return”.
Man, this feels like it is getting too hot. I really didn’t mean to strike a chord. I was just trying to point out that if you loved BRoy as a Dawg, there is no reason to still not be loving what he is doing in the NBA.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Mainly because the city of Los Angeles and the State of California
are in financial peril, and are completely unwilling to build a shiny new stadium for the NFL, and the NFL will not go there without a shiny new stadium.
Also, similar to what happened in Seattle with the Sonics, the LA fans either followed the team emotionally to LA, or followed the Raiders, or stopped following the NFL in any deeper way. LA actually provides a perfect example for the NBA in why they screwed up. Do you think the NFL DOESN’T want to be in LA? Hell no. They’d love to be there. But now that they played their cards the way they did, they can’t fold and just put a new team there.
One other significant factor— LA is a town people from across the country move to, so many hold their allegiance to their original hometown team. Those people are a significant number, and they are not going to vote for a tax increase in order to put a team they wont follow in the town they live in.
On your point about loving BRoy, I still do. I also loved him as a Garfield Bulldog, he was a heck of a player then. I only saw him play 3-5 games in HS, and I’ll probably only see him play 3-5 games in the NBA. I also can still love what he is doing without watching it.
I read the article, for the record. The article was far more interesting than watching an NBA game. I’ll keep reading about him here and there when I see something that looks intriguing, but I just don’t really find the NBA game that compelling anymore. Honestly, I haven’t since I stopped playing college ball.
They might be the most gifted athletes in the world, but they don’t play with a sense of urgency until the postseason, and I just don’t like basketball that doesn’t have that sense of urgency.
A sense of urgency matters to me far more than the talent of the players. I’d rather watch a jv high school game that is an absolute war, than an NBA game in month 1 of the regular season— and that goes Sonics or no Sonics in existence.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Nov 2, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
I do love what BRoy is doing in the NBA. I just choose not to actively follow it. And I don’t see why that should be viewed as odd or irrational.
And are you seriously telling me that media market size isn’t the primary driving factor in the TV deals the leagues sign, the deals that are the primary revenue source for the NFL and NBA and a significant income source for MLB?
When NBC goes to negotiate a new TV deal with the NBA, they absolutely pay attention to the fact that there are fewer TV sets that will be tuned in by swapping out Seattle for Oklahoma City. And that means less money offered by NBC in the next deal that what would’ve been offered had the NBA stayed in Seattle.
Who to hate
Supersonic fans should hate the NBA, the commissioner, anything to do with the NBA, the Mayor of Seattle, anybody in Seattle or King County government, anybody in Washington government, and Tyrone Willingham.
What the NBA did was completely irrational, so our responisble should be even more irrational. I hope the NBA goes bankrupt, after Michael Jordan retired the league has been in a death spiral, the sooner it dies the better.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
the Blazers can be common ground for us and Duck Fans
… if that matters to anyone.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
I agree
and I think I speak for all Oregonian’s, Duck Fans, and Blazer Fans when I say, all previous Seattle SuperSonic fans are welcome to jump on board the Blazer bandwagon!!!! Join the Party, we all hate Stern/NBA front office for ripping our rival and fellow NW team away.
Not happening.
The league I loved ceased to exist the day my team ceased to exist.
In truth, the league I loved disappeared years ago, but it took the disappearance of my own team for me to realize it.
Bird Law in this country isn't governed by reason.
by Tyler Jorgensen on Oct 29, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions
That would be my thougthts if I were in your shoes.
I respect this stance more than someone who jumps on the Blazer bandwagon.
After seeing what happened to the Sonics, I’m very thankful that Paul Allen likes having a team in Portland. It can be gone in an instant.
Very interesting
Little brother down in Oregon wants us to be Blazer fans, after he rips every other Seattle, all of which Oregon lacks. Very interesting. I keep an eye on the Blazers becaue they have a former Sonic, a former Husky, and because I believe their owner might eventually move them to Seattle. Funny how Ducks fans want us to be part of heir “team”, but bad mouth all of “our” teams. Always the little brother . . . .
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
meant
every other Seattle sports team.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
what are you talking about?
Plenty of Oregonians have found their way to UW and, in fact, most of them who are sports fans would call Seahawks and Mariners their hometown teams. I would be one of them – born in Seattle, raised in Portland, graduate of UW. Not an uncommon story.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
Just giving Matt Daddy some of his own medicine.
In a different thread he basically called out every other Seattle sports team, commented on how much they suck, and how he wanted nothing to do with them. Needless to say, there was a lot of backstory that went into that comment.
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington"
"BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON"
I got ya Lear, medicine taken and received (next time add a spoon full of sugar... jk)
I actually wish the NBA never took the Sonics from Seattle. I really enjoyed the extra rivalry between and rooting for more NW teams. I can’t say the same about your other pro franchises though, they just have never really impressed me.
I know a lot of Portlanders/Oregonians travel up to see games in Seattle, and hopefully they are well received when they do, just like if any Seattleites travel down to see a Blazer game, they will too.
Kenny Wheaton #20; The Pick - 1994 v UW. Matthew Harper #20; The Pick #2 - 2007 v USC. John Boyett #20;...
I'll go on the record as a lifelong Beaver and Blazer fan as saying we DON'T want to recycle old Sonics fans into new Blazers fans.
We just want the Sonics to come back, that’s all.
who's "we"?
I’m a life long Blazers fan, raised in Portland, who decidedly disagrees with your sentiment.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
The sentiment I've been getting on this whole topic
is a bit of both. Most Blazer fans don’t want old Sonic fans to be “default fans”. I sure that if you’re a sonic fan who flat out loves the NBA and would like to root the Blazers on, most would have no problem with that. But that would be like UO cutting their sports programs, what UW fan wants to lose our most hated rival? Would we expect UO fans to come check out a Husky game? I can’t imagine that to be the case.
I think what he’s saying is that they don’t want casual fans who won’t buy tickets just for the sake of having fans, and I’ve heared that echoed a whole lot. Most want Seattle to have a team again, so they can continue hating it and waiting every season to watch the Blazers try and beat the piss out of them.
Exactly.
Thank you for translating for Gekko. We’ve had some communication issues.
Any blazer fan happily welcoming Sonics fans aboard the bandwagon confuses the hell out of me. I say they root for the Thunder or scream and yell at the NBA until they get their Sonics back (I prefer the latter).
This reminds me of ducks rooting on our baseball team in the CWS (before they brought the sport back a few years later—pure coincidence I’m told!).
Newsflash ...
… roughly 20% of UW’s 42,000 students are officially from Oregon. Add in another two to four percent hailing from the greater Vancouver area. That means that between 8000 and 9000 students at the UW at any given time hail from Blazer friendly territory. Of Oregon States 17k students, just over half come from the state of Oregon. This means that roughly the same number of Oregonians attend UW as do OSU.
The moral of the story is that it is just as likely for a UW fan to be a Blazer fan as it is an OSU fan to endorse the Blazers. Of course it is acceptable for a BRoy fan to transition their allegiance from the Huskies to the Blazers if they wish. Let’s all quit being stupid on this.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
You're missing the point and tiring me out in the process.
We don’t want old Sonics fans. I will reluctantly admit that I am related to several Huskies and I am also aware that people from other states can cross state lines to attend college. What I am discussing is the absolving of the whole Sonics-Blazers rivalry. Personally, and I know I speak for many Blazer fans, we don’t want Sonic fans coming down here as much as we simply want the Sonics back in Seattle. Read it twice so we don’t have to go through this again, please.
Oh, and OSU has over 20,000 on campus, possibly more. Oregon’s universities (as most states) are up anywhere between 10-30% in enrollment this year, so this year’s numbers will probably be closer to 25,000-27,000.
GO BEAVERS AND BLAZERS
You were talking Blazers, hence my involvement.
Plus our teams are playing this week, so I figured I’d come over for some friendly conversation… which, for the most part, I’ve enjoyed.
Gotta admit it though, man, your arguments lack focus and are a little confusing…
Confusing Beavers is not too difficult.
… mostly because you are not debating anything worthy of an argument. You are piping rhetoric (“we don’t want your kind as Blazers fans”) and claiming falsely to speak for every other Blazer fan. That’s patently absurd and borderline idiotic. Trying to somehow link two options together (either Sonic fans come down to Portland OR the Sonics come back) is also silly as these are not mutually exclusive in any way nor do they represent a comprehensive set of possibilities. Its not surprising you are confused.
Damn, my eyeball tastes good.
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