[Now with Summary]: carp's Pac-12 proposal
by carp on Oct 29, 2008 9:38 AM PDT
32 comments
I posted this proposal over at Cal Golden Blogs originally (among others). Be sure to vote here in this poll if you are a Huskies fan!
A decision of this magnitude needs input from other Pac-10 teams so I’ll post similar things at the schools that have entered the 21st century and have SBN blogs (I’m looking at you ‘furd!). This includes ATQ, Conquest Chronicles, House of Sparky, Bruisnation, Building the Damn, UW Dawg Pound, and CougCenter, as well as Block U and The Ralphie Report. I also e-mailed Dr. Saturday (formerly SMQ), Ted Miller, and Jon Wilner to get their input.
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We're fine the way we are...
without teams lucking into championships due to scheduling quirks even though we have enough of them in our current setup.
by hairofthedawg on Oct 29, 2008 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
how about two BCS bowls per year?
and terrible bowls for the other non #1 Pac-10 teams?
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm old school...
can’t stand the BCS. PAC vs. the Big(?) in the Rose Bowl. The definitive national championship isn’t a concern of mine. I realize that doesn’t work in the modern financial situation, but I liked it then and I’d still like it now.
Then again, it’s not like we need anything else to argue about.
by hairofthedawg on Oct 29, 2008 11:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of me really agrees
I loved when the Rose Bowl held out of the Bowl Alliance, or whatever it was called and I’m a sucker for tradition. However I’d like to see the top Pac 10 team get to play a Big 12 or SEC team more often. It’s getting kind of boring watching USC mop up Big 10 teams every year. I’m still disappointed we didn’t get to see USC – Georgia last year.
by Cowboy Dan on Oct 29, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love the tradition, also want a clear champion
Love to see 4 big bowls, such as Rosebowl, with conference ties. Winners go on to a semifinal, and then a final championship bowl.
For instance: Arrange how you wish,
RoseBowl – Pac 10/Big10
Orange Bowl – ACC/Big East
Fiesta Bowl – Big 12/At large
Sugar Bowl – Sec/At large
Rose Bowl winner vs. Fiesta Bowl winner, Orange Bowl winner vs. Sugar Bowl winner, followed by a National Championship game
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Oct 29, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ooops
I’m not sure who’s idea this is, but it’s not well thought out. Why would Colorado leave the Big 12 for the Pac 10????
If this were to be taken seriously you’d need to mention schools that would want to move up to a BCS conference. Say Utah, BYU, Boise State, Fresno State, San Diego State, and other west coast non BCS schools.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Oct 29, 2008 11:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ummm...it's my idea and I have thought it out.
Did you read the proposal? There’s many paragraphs.
Here’s what Buffs fans have to say:
http://www.ralphiereport.com/2008/10/29/649196/carp-s-pac-12-expansion-pr
They’d leave the Big 12 because they’ll never have another real shot at winning the Big 12. It’s the Southwest Conference now.
I addressed most of the schools you mentioned that are worth talking about.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 29, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If schools are to be added, they would have to stand up academically to the rest of the Pac-10, as well as compete in the Olympic sports.
Utah and BYU wouldn’t cut it outisde of football and basketball. San Diego State, Fresno, and San Jose St would be better options. Colorado would be a good fit if they wanted to move out of the Big-12, they are a good university, and culturally seem to have more in common with the outdoor-loving west then their brethren of the plains. Don’t think the rest of the Pac-10 has hockey though.
Oregon and Colorado could compete for most baked student bodies. Woot Woot.
by NEdawg on Oct 30, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think hockey has it's own league, no?
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It won't happen
Not enough TV’s in Utah and Colorado isn’t going to move.
by John Berkowitz on Oct 29, 2008 6:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Salt Lake is a decent sized western city
good enough for the winter olympics.
it’s a major airplane hub…as is denver
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Traditional rivals
Colorado’s rival is Nebraska and for that reason I don’t think they would leave the big 12.
That’s not to say they couldn’t schedule them every year but if it’s not a conference game it doesn’t carry as much impact.
by T9ODawg on Oct 30, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my proposal preserves their
rivalry. It’s just not a league game anymore. Hey, L’s still matter!
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got to agree with John
Colorado’s not interested in moving, no matter what the fan’s think or want.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Oct 29, 2008 8:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hell No
I think that making it a pac 12 is a decent idea, (make the pac ten teams play a conference championship), but if you think that Colorado is gonna leave the big 12 your crazy. You may be able to get a MWC team to come into the conference, but that would actually provide a challenge for BYU, so don’t count on it.
"There aint nothin' over till it's over. "
~Rocky Balboa
by Hook'em13 on Oct 30, 2008 9:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
check out The Ralphie Report
they’re open to it.
Colorado can’t compete with the Southwest Conference/Big 12S and that’s why they’d do it. Plus they seem to think a move could elevate their hoops teams.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI, we're all just ignoring you now
The idea that Colorado would move to the Pac-10 because it can’t compete for championships in the Big 12 is so absurd that it’s not even worth acknowledging your posts.
I think you made a wrong turn somewhere; the Mountain West blogs are that way.
by busplunger on Oct 30, 2008 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey, your entitled to your opinion
I’m a Cal fan by the way. It’s not absurd and I don’t care if someone named buspluger wants to ignore me.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read the proposal
And know I firmly believe you are a Colorado fan who thinks the Big 12 is too tough. You also think a move to the weaker Pac 10 would make Colorado a National Contender.
FYI – The Pac 10 is just as tough, USC would blow you out on a yearly basis, let alone Cal, Oregon, Oregon State, ASU, and in the near future Washington. I won’t even dignify your basketball comment with a remark.
Just because a few fans think they found an easier road, doesn’t mean the school is even remotely interested in moving.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Oct 30, 2008 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF...I'm not a Buffs fan or a Mountain West Fan
I’m a Cal fan! Look, I’m a nice guy I realize your school’s going through a tough time but I didn’t expect this over here! I’m just trying to provide something interesting and fun to talk about. By the way, I think the ’91 Husky team is one of the greatest teams ever.
I think they have a better shot at competing and your argument doesn’t suggest otherwise. At all. The Big 12 S is too tough and with ties to Texas/Oklahoma I don’t see it. I didn’t just make up the Big 12 N/S disparity. Hell, Tom Osborne acknowledged it while his team was winning titles (as an “only a matter of time” kind of thing). I don’t think Colorado would dominate the rest of the Pac-10, but I think they’d be competitive and having them would make for a stronger league. Colorado is definetyl down in hoops. I’m open to BYU and Utah too, but I think football is king and Colorado brings a lot of history and is a better academic institution.
Your right, this is a fans opinion. And you aren’t qualified to say the school isn’t even remotely interested. They were more than interested not that long ago!
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops, "and now I firmly . . ."
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Oct 30, 2008 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pac ten vs Big 12?
at least for the moment, the big 12 is about twice as good as the pac ten and there is now way anybody could argue otherwise. and if you look at the teams in the top 25 the than the big 12 is has a 5-2 up on the pac ten. even our cellar dwellers are better than washington and wazzu.
So yes, the pac ten is much weaker than the big 12 and there is NO argument to say otherwise.
"There aint nothin' over till it's over. "
~Rocky Balboa
by Hook'em13 on Oct 30, 2008 2:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you said it for yourself
AT THE MOMENT, the Big 12 is better. Historically the Pac 10 is equal to or tougher than the Big 12.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Oct 30, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Historically ?
if you look at the overall conference teams, you will find that the big twelve has a many more storied programs. The pac ten has washington, USC, and UCLA as their storied programs. and Washington has only one 1 national title. not sure about UCLA or anyone else in the conference.
But I can tell you this much, there is no way that the Pac ten is “tougher” than the big twelve. Historically speaking.
"There aint nothin' over till it's over. "
~Rocky Balboa
by Hook'em13 on Oct 30, 2008 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
does Cal count? Probably not
they won two titles in ‘20 and ’37…Rose Bowl in ’59…Pappy Waldorf…Jeff Tedford…ok I’m grasping here. They were too bad, for too long. UCLA is storied in hoops, but football?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_football
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_football
No denying the Huskies and USC though.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 30, 2008 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
I was just stretching on UCLA, they are the rose bowl and what not. But Cal is out of it, they have been terrible for the last who knows how long. Huskies have a national title, and the trojans have eleven of the damn things. But that is about it. (as of recent being in the last 60 years.
"There aint nothin' over till it's over. "
~Rocky Balboa
by Hook'em13 on Oct 30, 2008 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I buy that
more rich history of the Pac-10 (it’s worth the wait).
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 31, 2008 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Summary
If you read the proposal, you know that I posted polls at each of the SBN blog sites. Thanks to all who’ve participated across 10 blogs, voted 410 times, and commented ! I thought this would be a great topic to blog about and I was surprised at some of the results. Like everyone, I’m happy the conference has an auto-BCS bid. But I’m frustrated by the fact that the Pac-10 has shown it cannot get two BCS bowl bids (’04 Cal, ’07 ASU). Boo hoo, right? Well, these are big bucks were talking about here. It would be nice to be able to replace the rotten wood bleachers in Memorial (or something to that effect). Moreover, the secondary bowls are terrible. The Holiday Bowl sounds corny, is pre-New Years, and gets the opportunity to play the #3 Big-12 team. And the Pac-10, in an effort to get more bowls, has settled for "meh" bowls rather than quality bowls. My goal behind the expansion was to level the playing field and to improve the Pac-10’s chances of two BCS bowl bids. I’ve posted the voting statistics below from all of the schools participating (% for / % against / total # voters):
Cal (Cal Golden Blogs): 34% / 64% / 49
Bruins Nation: (UCLA): 21% / 78 % / 185
Conquest Chronicles (USC): 23 % / 76 % / 17
ASU (House of Sparky): 47 %/ 52 % / 19
Oregon (ATQ): 22 % / 77 % / 57
Oregon St (Building the Dam): 15 % / 85 % / 40
UW (UW Dawg Pound): 50 % / 50 % / 38
Wazzou (CougCenter): 36 % / 63 % / 11
Utah (Block U): 80 % / 20 % / 30
Colorado (The Ralphie Report): 63 % / 38 % / 18
UofA (no SBN blog): N/A
‘furd (no SBN blog): N/A
=======
Total: 32 % / 68 % / 410
Throw out UCLA’s 185 votes for copying Cal’s fight song, mascot, colors, team name: 41 % / 59 % / 227
I’m kidding with the last one of course…just a little good natured ribbing. BN should be commended for having such a large blogging audience. I’ve listed some of the general comments that were received around the various blogs that participated:
1) Round Robin Scheduling/I hate changing. Wow. I never knew so many people like robins that are round. In my opinion, I don’t think the SEC/Big-12 cares about non-round robin scheduling since they usually compete for a second BCS bowl bid and they can laugh about it all the way to the bank. The round robin gives the clearest champion whereas the proposed schedule could potentially lead to a screwy system although with better football this "screwiness" could be minimal. This was by far the most common reason for opposing expansion. 11 league football games and 22 league hoops games sound like a lot. Would 11 league games + 2-3 OOC games work? If so, does this improve our BCS chances? I don’t think so. I think a lot of people love the overhyped Conference Championhsip – particularly those who vote in the polls that decide our BCS rankings.
2) Colorado wouldn’t want to/Colorado sucks at hoops/BYU and Utah instead. As the votes and comments suggested, Colorado might want to (some fans at least). Hell, they almost did in ’94 I think. The balance of power has shifted towards the Big-12S/Southwest Conference teams (just as Osborne said it would in the late ‘90s) and it doesn’t appear as it will shift significantly back. Fans should compare the revenue potential of the new Pac-12 and compare it to the revenue potential of the old Big-12, not compare current Pac-10/Big12. I realize that’s hard to do but somebody must be talented enough at business to do this.
Several fans voted for BYU and Utah instead since they offer better hoops teams and have the "Holy War" rivalry to bring. My poll question asked for Colorado and Utah, so these voting numbers don’t reflect BYU + Utah for the Pac-12 expansion. Note that my proposal protects the Holy War, it just doesn’t make it a league game. L’s still matter. This allows for Colorado and Utah to dust off their old rivalry. If BYU wants to take itself seriously, get an SBN blog and help ‘furd and ‘Zona as well.
3) Colardo/Utah don’t fit academically. Yes they do…they are better than 1/3 to 1/2 of the current universities in the Pac-10. Some Buffs fans were really offended by some of the lower Pac-10 blogs were really offended by blogger posting at academically inferior institutions. BYU is different: excellent (so they say) undergrad institution, huge endowment $, no research and no grant $. Some have said this does/does not matter.
4) Mountain West teams can’t compete with Pac-10 teams. A Utah blogger actually said this as his team is ranked #7, 2 spots behind USC and 17 spots ahead of the next Pac-10 team. I think this says something about our current ranking system!
5) Don’t conform to The Man, Screw The Man. Totally unexpected this one and it is very Berkeley. A Utah fan said he enjoys being the BCS buster and he thinks the Pac-10 should leave the BCS conference just to see what others would do. Several other fans around the Pac-10 said they’d rather fix/destroy the BCS and adopt the old version or create a playoff system. One Bruins fan had some crazy shuffling throughout the nation that lead to 7 BCS conferences comprised of 10 teams each, playing round robins, and the winners + next highest ranked team would get BCS bowls. "Fixing the current BCS" is the only thing I see coming out of these ideas mentioned as we roll into another bowl year with 3 teams undefeated…
6) I don’t want to road trip to Utah and Colorado/SLC and Denver aren’t big enough cities. Hey, people hate change. Salt Lake and Denver are major airline hubs and I’ve flown to both locales several times. Salt Lake hosted the Winter Olympics this six years ago. Denver just hosted the DNC. Pulman just hos…
7) Pac-10 teams are afraid of being less successful/losing recruits. I’m of the belief that better teams = better football = better glory. Some aren’t.
8) Are you a commish? Buffs fan? Mountain West fan? No, I’m not a commissioner, Buffs fan, nor Mountain West fan. I’m just a scientist (cue Coldplay) who solves problems for a living.
I’d like to thank everyone for participating and for making this an enjoyable experience. Thanks to all of the chief bloggers for letting a Cal fan post at their site, especially House of Sparky and The Ralphie Report for front page presence.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
by carp on Oct 31, 2008 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting results
I’m surprised the Buff and Utes fans were in favor
by T9ODawg on Oct 31, 2008 3:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sample Size
18 Colorado fans and 30 Utah fans don’t constitute a very big sample size. Somebody is fooling themselves if they think they have any clue what the fans really think.
"Bow Down to Washington"
"Kick the tires and light the fires!"
by Lear Pilot on Nov 2, 2008 9:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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